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Re: T&T: Shackle or not and consequence

LZ
Lawrence Zeitlin
Sun, Mar 14, 2010 3:02 AM

Rudy writes:
(This is one of the reasons why I (along
with rope manufacturers) suggest that snubbers and rope rodes (any
rope) are
sized not to exceed 15% of the ropes tensile strength.)


Take Rudy's advice with a grain of salt. While not entirely wrong, it
is not entirely right either. Most rope manufacturers specify the
breaking strength of rope as the average of five tests of new rope
pulled to destruction by a test machine. The rope lengths are straight
and the force is slowly and continuously increased until the rope
breaks. You can generally have faith in the manufacturer's
specifications as long as the rope is new and the pull is steady.

Specification of the safe working load is another matter. The
manufacturer takes the breaking strength and divides it by an
arbitrary safety factor ranging from 2 to 10 determined largely by use
and the manufacturer's fear of liability. Most SWL estimates are based
on rope use in the construction industry where rope is often used for
hoisting weights overhead. For these conditions stretch is
undesirable. Also ropes tend to age and weaken in the sunlight and on
exposure to the environment. A safety factor of 5 to 7 is generally
suggested. This is in accord with Rudy's prescription. A nylon rope
with a breaking strength of 1500 lb thus has a SWL of no more than 300
lbs.

But use of nylon rope for anchor rodes and snubbers is another matter.
You want a rode or snubber to stretch under shock absorbing energy and
release the energy relatively slowly. That is the entire purpose of a
snubber. Heavily loaded new nylon rope can stretch up to 40% and
return to its former length without loss of strength. The 40% stretch
point is critical. Stretch it much more than that and it is likely to
part, the ends snapping back with missile like force. The following is
a quote from the Encyclopedia of Boating:
"The three most commonly encountered synthetic materials found on
boats are nylon, Dacron, and polypropylene. Their uses are as
follows:Nylon stretches about 10 to 15 percent under a load equal to
30 percent of its breaking strength; therefore, it is used for anchor
lines, docklines, and towing lines, where its great strength and
stretchability are advantages. Dacron, a polyester fiber, stretches
only about 3.5 to 5 percent under the same conditions, so it is used
for sheets, halyards, and other applications where stretch would be
undesirable. Polypropylene has little elasticity, tends not to retain
knots, and has only about 60 percent the strength of Dacron, but its
light and inexpensive and it floats. Its used for heaving lines,
dinghy painters, and water-skiers tow-lines."

Robert Ogg, inventor of the Danforth anchor, did extensive studies on
the influence of anchor rodes on anchor holding power and came to the
conclusion that nylon line loaded to a maximum of about 30% of its
breaking strength was preferable to either chain or wire rode. The
elasticity prevented lightweight anchors from being jerked out of the
bottom by transient waves or wind gusts. Chain was good too until
stretched tight.

An elastic line transforms a short quick change in velocity into a
long slow change in velocity. Think of the rode as a horizontal bungee
cord. If a bungee jumper lept from a high bridge attached to an
unyielding steel cable (or a chain) the force his body would feel when
he reached the end of the cable would be the same as if he hit the
ground. It would certainly rip his legs off. Attach him to an elastic
bungee cord which stretches as he falls, and the force is reduced to
the point where it is tolerable and even fun. The energy is stored in
the bungee cord and he rebounds almost to the starting height.

The same with a mooring line. The inertial force due to boat motion
from a strong wave impact would be transmitted directly to the anchor
if the rode did not have any elasticity. It is the elasticity of the
line that stretches the force out in time and diminishes its pull on
the anchor. The energy is stored in the line and released by slowly
pulling the boat back into position. A nylon line stores the energy by
stretch. When loaded to 30% of its breaking strength, a nylon line
will stretch almost 15%. That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to
get the maximum stretch. In a chain rode, the energy is stored by
gravity, flattening out the catenary. Gravity pulls the boat back into
position as the line resumes its normal curve. The heavier the chain,
the more energy stored and the more elastic the rode.

Bigger trawlers with all chain rodes require a heavier chain to store
enough energy to provide sufficient elasticity. Many trawler owners
confound this with the idea of rode strength. In reality a relatively
small diameter chain has enough breaking strength to anchor all but
the largest trawlers. Wire rope, pound for pound, is much stronger
than chain but is rarely used in trawler anchor rodes because it is
too light to provide much shock attenuation at all.

Of course chain and rope can be used in combination to provide some of
the advantages of each. William van Dorn in "Oceanography and
Seamanship";
Dodd, Mead (1974), presents a graph based on calculations for anchoring
oceanographic vessels in storm conditions. It suggests that the optimum
chain/nylon combination for anchoring vessels < 50ft. in 30 ft. of water
under storm conditions is a 20% chain, 80% nylon rode with an overall
scope
of 6:1. Assuming that the boat's bow chock is 6 feet above the water
and that
the waves are 4 feet (8 feet peak to trough) this works out to a 240
foot
total rode comprised of 48 feet of chain and 192 feet of nylon.
Clearly these
are extreme conditions. In shallower water the rode could be reduced
proportionately. However, the length of chain required approximates
one boat
length and a good working rule for a combined rode is a boat length of
chain
plus whatever nylon is required to give a 6:1 scope. In shallower
water, the
scope should be increased, within swing limitations, to 7:1 to permit
the bow
to lift more easily to the choppy waves near the shore.

Larry Z

Rudy writes: (This is one of the reasons why I (along with rope manufacturers) suggest that snubbers and rope rodes (any rope) are sized not to exceed 15% of the ropes tensile strength.) - - - - - - Take Rudy's advice with a grain of salt. While not entirely wrong, it is not entirely right either. Most rope manufacturers specify the breaking strength of rope as the average of five tests of new rope pulled to destruction by a test machine. The rope lengths are straight and the force is slowly and continuously increased until the rope breaks. You can generally have faith in the manufacturer's specifications as long as the rope is new and the pull is steady. Specification of the safe working load is another matter. The manufacturer takes the breaking strength and divides it by an arbitrary safety factor ranging from 2 to 10 determined largely by use and the manufacturer's fear of liability. Most SWL estimates are based on rope use in the construction industry where rope is often used for hoisting weights overhead. For these conditions stretch is undesirable. Also ropes tend to age and weaken in the sunlight and on exposure to the environment. A safety factor of 5 to 7 is generally suggested. This is in accord with Rudy's prescription. A nylon rope with a breaking strength of 1500 lb thus has a SWL of no more than 300 lbs. But use of nylon rope for anchor rodes and snubbers is another matter. You want a rode or snubber to stretch under shock absorbing energy and release the energy relatively slowly. That is the entire purpose of a snubber. Heavily loaded new nylon rope can stretch up to 40% and return to its former length without loss of strength. The 40% stretch point is critical. Stretch it much more than that and it is likely to part, the ends snapping back with missile like force. The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia of Boating: "The three most commonly encountered synthetic materials found on boats are nylon, Dacron, and polypropylene. Their uses are as follows:Nylon stretches about 10 to 15 percent under a load equal to 30 percent of its breaking strength; therefore, it is used for anchor lines, docklines, and towing lines, where its great strength and stretchability are advantages. Dacron, a polyester fiber, stretches only about 3.5 to 5 percent under the same conditions, so it is used for sheets, halyards, and other applications where stretch would be undesirable. Polypropylene has little elasticity, tends not to retain knots, and has only about 60 percent the strength of Dacron, but its light and inexpensive and it floats. Its used for heaving lines, dinghy painters, and water-skiers tow-lines." Robert Ogg, inventor of the Danforth anchor, did extensive studies on the influence of anchor rodes on anchor holding power and came to the conclusion that nylon line loaded to a maximum of about 30% of its breaking strength was preferable to either chain or wire rode. The elasticity prevented lightweight anchors from being jerked out of the bottom by transient waves or wind gusts. Chain was good too until stretched tight. An elastic line transforms a short quick change in velocity into a long slow change in velocity. Think of the rode as a horizontal bungee cord. If a bungee jumper lept from a high bridge attached to an unyielding steel cable (or a chain) the force his body would feel when he reached the end of the cable would be the same as if he hit the ground. It would certainly rip his legs off. Attach him to an elastic bungee cord which stretches as he falls, and the force is reduced to the point where it is tolerable and even fun. The energy is stored in the bungee cord and he rebounds almost to the starting height. The same with a mooring line. The inertial force due to boat motion from a strong wave impact would be transmitted directly to the anchor if the rode did not have any elasticity. It is the elasticity of the line that stretches the force out in time and diminishes its pull on the anchor. The energy is stored in the line and released by slowly pulling the boat back into position. A nylon line stores the energy by stretch. When loaded to 30% of its breaking strength, a nylon line will stretch almost 15%. That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to get the maximum stretch. In a chain rode, the energy is stored by gravity, flattening out the catenary. Gravity pulls the boat back into position as the line resumes its normal curve. The heavier the chain, the more energy stored and the more elastic the rode. Bigger trawlers with all chain rodes require a heavier chain to store enough energy to provide sufficient elasticity. Many trawler owners confound this with the idea of rode strength. In reality a relatively small diameter chain has enough breaking strength to anchor all but the largest trawlers. Wire rope, pound for pound, is much stronger than chain but is rarely used in trawler anchor rodes because it is too light to provide much shock attenuation at all. Of course chain and rope can be used in combination to provide some of the advantages of each. William van Dorn in "Oceanography and Seamanship"; Dodd, Mead (1974), presents a graph based on calculations for anchoring oceanographic vessels in storm conditions. It suggests that the optimum chain/nylon combination for anchoring vessels < 50ft. in 30 ft. of water under storm conditions is a 20% chain, 80% nylon rode with an overall scope of 6:1. Assuming that the boat's bow chock is 6 feet above the water and that the waves are 4 feet (8 feet peak to trough) this works out to a 240 foot total rode comprised of 48 feet of chain and 192 feet of nylon. Clearly these are extreme conditions. In shallower water the rode could be reduced proportionately. However, the length of chain required approximates one boat length and a good working rule for a combined rode is a boat length of chain plus whatever nylon is required to give a 6:1 scope. In shallower water, the scope should be increased, within swing limitations, to 7:1 to permit the bow to lift more easily to the choppy waves near the shore. Larry Z
RT
Richard Tomkinson
Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:39 AM

This line from a previous post:
"That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to
get the maximum stretch."

The tables for elastic elongation provided by manufacturers relate
elongation to either breaking strength or diameter, never length. As
breaking strength (usually)increases with diameter, so does elongation.
Referring to the quoted line, the implication is that a lighter line gives
greater stretch, the exact opposite of fact.
A 'light' line will stretch less than a 'heavy' line of the same length.
Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line will
absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line.
Richard

This line from a previous post: "That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to get the maximum stretch." The tables for elastic elongation provided by manufacturers relate elongation to either breaking strength or diameter, never length. As breaking strength (usually)increases with diameter, so does elongation. Referring to the quoted line, the implication is that a lighter line gives greater stretch, the exact opposite of fact. A 'light' line will stretch less than a 'heavy' line of the same length. Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line will absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line. Richard
MP
Marty Puckett
Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:33 AM

This line from a previous post:
"That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to
get the maximum stretch."

The tables for elastic elongation provided by manufacturers relate
elongation to either breaking strength or diameter, never length. As
breaking strength (usually)increases with diameter, so does
elongation. Referring to the quoted line, the implication is that a
lighter line gives greater stretch, the exact opposite of fact.
A 'light' line will stretch less than a 'heavy' line of the same
length.

Is this with the same load?  If not then you might as well be
comparing apples to oranges.  If it is then it seems counter-intuitive
to me. I'm going to need more than this to convince me.

Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line
will absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line.

As far as how much energy they will absorb your statement is correct
only after you exceed the point where the light line starts to take
damage, and I'm not so sure about the slowly part either. Large
synthetic lines pulled to separation can recoil with catastrophic
force and speed.

Richard


Marty Puckett
Troller Dreaming

"To dream is to take the first and largest step upon the path to a
goal." -- me

> This line from a previous post: > "That's why Ogg preferred light nylon lines to > get the maximum stretch." > > The tables for elastic elongation provided by manufacturers relate > elongation to either breaking strength or diameter, never length. As > breaking strength (usually)increases with diameter, so does > elongation. Referring to the quoted line, the implication is that a > lighter line gives greater stretch, the exact opposite of fact. > A 'light' line will stretch less than a 'heavy' line of the same > length. Is this with the same load? If not then you might as well be comparing apples to oranges. If it is then it seems counter-intuitive to me. I'm going to need more than this to convince me. > Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line > will absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line. As far as how much energy they will absorb your statement is correct only after you exceed the point where the light line starts to take damage, and I'm not so sure about the slowly part either. Large synthetic lines pulled to separation can recoil with catastrophic force and speed. > Richard > ______________________________ Marty Puckett Troller Dreaming "To dream is to take the first and largest step upon the path to a goal." -- me
RT
Richard Tomkinson
Tue, Mar 16, 2010 4:04 AM

Is this with the same load?  If not then you might as well be
comparing apples to oranges.  If it is then it seems counter-intuitive
to me. I'm going to need more than this to convince me.

It is indeed counterintuitive. No it does not mean that a given weight will
stretch a light line the same amount as a heavy line. It does mean that the
absolute amount that a heavy line will stretch before any fiber damage is
longer than a light line will stretch before any fiber damage. But that is
not the point.
As Rudy will probably chime in on, it is that last amount of stretch that is
the important amount, when the loads are exceptional, not when they are
trivial or routine. That is why Rudy speaks of stretch after the rode has
taken up the strain from the prevailing wind. The issue is what happens
next? Line failure or a safe lie (at anchor).
Your point about separation is well taken. Here again, a light line will
separate before a heavier line. I don't think we want to compare the damage
caused by various lines parting, rather, we don't want them to part.
Therefore all the loads expected must lie within the capacity of the line.

In my opinion, there is one exception which I have used several times. Say
for some other-than-weather reason you wish to have a quiet lie at anchor
yet be alerted if exceptional weather or current occurs, simply fashion a
short snubber of say, 300lb. string in the usual manner with a loop of rode
on the boat end. When the string breaks, the noise and small shock will wake
you up. Ta-da.
Richard

Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line
will absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line.

As far as how much energy they will absorb your statement is correct
only after you exceed the point where the light line starts to take
damage, and I'm not so sure about the slowly part either. Large
synthetic lines pulled to separation can recoil with catastrophic
force and speed.

Richard


Marty Puckett
Troller Dreaming

"To dream is to take the first and largest step upon the path to a
goal." -- me

07:33:00

> Is this with the same load? If not then you might as well be > comparing apples to oranges. If it is then it seems counter-intuitive > to me. I'm going to need more than this to convince me. It is indeed counterintuitive. No it does not mean that a given weight will stretch a light line the same amount as a heavy line. It does mean that the absolute amount that a heavy line will stretch before any fiber damage is longer than a light line will stretch before any fiber damage. But that is not the point. As Rudy will probably chime in on, it is that last amount of stretch that is the important amount, when the loads are exceptional, not when they are trivial or routine. That is why Rudy speaks of stretch after the rode has taken up the strain from the prevailing wind. The issue is what happens next? Line failure or a safe lie (at anchor). Your point about separation is well taken. Here again, a light line will separate before a heavier line. I don't think we want to compare the damage caused by various lines parting, rather, we don't want them to part. Therefore all the loads expected must lie within the capacity of the line. In my opinion, there is one exception which I have used several times. Say for some other-than-weather reason you wish to have a quiet lie at anchor yet be alerted if exceptional weather or current occurs, simply fashion a short snubber of say, 300lb. string in the usual manner with a loop of rode on the boat end. When the string breaks, the noise and small shock will wake you up. Ta-da. Richard > >> Perhaps more important from an anchoring point of view, a heavy line >> will absorb and slowly release more energy than a light line. > > As far as how much energy they will absorb your statement is correct > only after you exceed the point where the light line starts to take > damage, and I'm not so sure about the slowly part either. Large > synthetic lines pulled to separation can recoil with catastrophic > force and speed. > >> Richard >> ______________________________ > > Marty Puckett > Troller Dreaming > > "To dream is to take the first and largest step upon the path to a > goal." -- me 07:33:00