Endeavor: "Form following function?"
Regarding: Jonah Jones and Roger Bingham's differing views about the
appearance of the Endeavor power cats.
As someone who's been marketing a wide variety of catamarans longer than
anyone else in North America, I have to agree with France's Roger Bingham, and
respectfully disagree with Jonas' apology/explanation for the appearance
(aesthestics) of the Endeavor power cat. (see reprint of each of their
comments below, in this forum's previously printed "Message 7")
Jonah's observation implies that in order to have a power cat in which "to do
things," it's exterior styling or aesthetics (specifically, the the lack of
either) is either excusable or unavoidable.
I suspect that the manufacturers of Legos building-blocks might explain in
similar fashion the look of any model "boat" or "car" made with Legos little
"bricks." In the latter case, NO ONE would pretend that the completed car/boat
project is sleek or stylish. But it's a syllogism to therefore claim that all
model cars or boats must lack style or sleekness.
In similar fashion, the excuse (or acceptance) that it's okay (or explainable)
that it "looks like a condo" because, in return, its a vessel in which you can
"do things" is a disconnect.
The proof of this, of course, is simply to view the numerous 40' to 50' power
cats designed by Roger Hill, Greg Marshall, Kurt Hughes, and numerous other
noted cat designers...NONE of whose designs succumb to or settle for the
boxiness of the Endeavor cats. Yet NONE of those cats is less capable of
allowing their owners to "do things" in/with them.
Do you recall the SUV that O.J. Simpson made so famous during his infamous
slow-speed "getaway?" That was the old Ford Bronco, arguably about the
"boxy-est" SUV ever manufactured. But, employing Jonah's rationale, one could
try to justify that Bronco's ultra-boxy design as some seemingly "unavoidable"
case of "form following function."
"Au contraire, mon frer." One has only to view various subsequent SUV designs
(ie, Lexus, Porsche, etc.) which have brought a very demonstrable style to
what is still, in essence, a "box on wheels."
The mystery to boating individuals such as Mr. Bingham and myself is why
Endeavor would choose NOT to simply add a bit of style to their cats'
exteriors. That company's good fortune is that at the moment it offers about
the only U.S.-built power cat in that size range at that price. Hence, they
probably think they need not worry about the exterior appearance of their
cats. But, I've been around long enough in this industry to remember when the
very same situation existed for sailing cats. In fact, in the early 1980s the
Catalac sailing cats from the UK -- arguably the boxiest sailing cat design
ever marketed in substantial numbers -- sold more than 500 cats in the
up-to-42' range around the world. For several years, Catalac was one of the
two most successful brands available. But, as SOON as other models with
sleeker, more attractive lines appeared, the Catalac brand made like the
Dodo...and disappeared. (The #1 most successful sailing cat design at that
time, the Prout cats, subsequently succumbed to the same obsolescence --
again, primarily because of the company's aged, and unchanging exterior
design.)
Endeavor runs the same risk. Right now, they're essentially the "only game in
town" among U.S.-built cruising power cats. (Please don't misunderstand my
personal opinion about that -- I have genuine admiration for the builder's
success thus far. I think the company's doing a bang-up job of selling their
cats. It is a noteworthy accomplishment.) However, the high risk for them is
that as soon as one or more competitors, offering the same interior volume and
accommodations appear, Endeavor's at risk of VERY quickly suffering the SAME
huge sales slump as did Catalac as soon as a range of much sleeker cats
(Fountaine Pajot, Privilege, Kennex, Fountaine Pajot) appeared on the sailing
cat scene.
Endeavor's alternative as soon as sleeker-looking models come on line?
They'll have to (1) find a way to hang their hat on some other peg. (i.e.,
"cheapest" power cat," or "best equipped" power cat, or some other marketing
angle), or (2) make the jump to new tooling and a more stylish exterior.
Of course, there's a third option -- simply hope that no other sleeker power
cats come to the market place. But the latter is a short-term bet. New
brands/designs ARE coming over the horizon -- ALL of them arguably MUCH more
stylish than the Endeavors -- models such as Celebrity Yachts' sleeker looking
40-footer... the pending, US-built Destiny 42....and even the
already-available (and slightly-less-boxy) PDQ 40-plus footer.
Otherwise, I predict Endeavor's "Bronco" is going to demonstrate its own
"slow-speed (or not-so-slow-speed) getaway" . . . to obsolesence.
In closing, I note Jonah's own admission that he drives a "station wagon."
Perhaps that provides the quickest refutation to his own basic argument. Last
I looked, just about every automobile manufacturer had dropped that design
model from their inventories. The reason? Buyers' dissatisfaction with that
design's appearance -- "form-following-function" not withstanding.
Rod Gibbons
Cruising Cats USA
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:15:31 -0300
From: Jonah Jones jonah@northrock.bm
Subject: Re: [PCW] and link.....
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 88aa77ab78fd6b0dfbb827fc5ac74ecf@northrock.bm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
agreed on both counts
its for doing stuff, not looking at...
bauhaus..... form follows function
I also drive a station wagon and not an Aston martin
On May 2, 2007, at 1:38 PM, R Bingham wrote:
This looks like one big boat inside . . . . . . . and like a condo on
the
outside.
Just my honest opinion.
Regards
Roger Bingham
France
Gentlemen, let's not mince words. In all aspects, that boat is "butt ugly".
Respectfully, Bert Harrott
----- Original Message -----
From: rodgibbons@mindspring.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 5:07 AM
Subject: [PCW] Endeavor: "Form following function?"
Regarding: Jonah Jones and Roger Bingham's differing views about the
appearance of the Endeavor power cats.
As someone who's been marketing a wide variety of catamarans longer than
anyone else in North America, I have to agree with France's Roger Bingham,
and
respectfully disagree with Jonas' apology/explanation for the appearance
(aesthestics) of the Endeavor power cat. (see reprint of each of their
comments below, in this forum's previously printed "Message 7")
Jonah's observation implies that in order to have a power cat in which "to
do
things," it's exterior styling or aesthetics (specifically, the the lack
of
either) is either excusable or unavoidable.
I suspect that the manufacturers of Legos building-blocks might explain in
similar fashion the look of any model "boat" or "car" made with Legos
little
"bricks." In the latter case, NO ONE would pretend that the completed
car/boat
project is sleek or stylish. But it's a syllogism to therefore claim that
all
model cars or boats must lack style or sleekness.
In similar fashion, the excuse (or acceptance) that it's okay (or
explainable)
that it "looks like a condo" because, in return, its a vessel in which you
can
"do things" is a disconnect.
The proof of this, of course, is simply to view the numerous 40' to 50'
power
cats designed by Roger Hill, Greg Marshall, Kurt Hughes, and numerous
other
noted cat designers...NONE of whose designs succumb to or settle for the
boxiness of the Endeavor cats. Yet NONE of those cats is less capable of
allowing their owners to "do things" in/with them.
Do you recall the SUV that O.J. Simpson made so famous during his infamous
slow-speed "getaway?" That was the old Ford Bronco, arguably about the
"boxy-est" SUV ever manufactured. But, employing Jonah's rationale, one
could
try to justify that Bronco's ultra-boxy design as some seemingly
"unavoidable"
case of "form following function."
"Au contraire, mon frer." One has only to view various subsequent SUV
designs
(ie, Lexus, Porsche, etc.) which have brought a very demonstrable style to
what is still, in essence, a "box on wheels."
The mystery to boating individuals such as Mr. Bingham and myself is why
Endeavor would choose NOT to simply add a bit of style to their cats'
exteriors. That company's good fortune is that at the moment it offers
about
the only U.S.-built power cat in that size range at that price. Hence,
they
probably think they need not worry about the exterior appearance of their
cats. But, I've been around long enough in this industry to remember when
the
very same situation existed for sailing cats. In fact, in the early 1980s
the
Catalac sailing cats from the UK -- arguably the boxiest sailing cat
design
ever marketed in substantial numbers -- sold more than 500 cats in the
up-to-42' range around the world. For several years, Catalac was one of
the
two most successful brands available. But, as SOON as other models with
sleeker, more attractive lines appeared, the Catalac brand made like the
Dodo...and disappeared. (The #1 most successful sailing cat design at that
time, the Prout cats, subsequently succumbed to the same obsolescence --
again, primarily because of the company's aged, and unchanging exterior
design.)
Endeavor runs the same risk. Right now, they're essentially the "only game
in
town" among U.S.-built cruising power cats. (Please don't misunderstand my
personal opinion about that -- I have genuine admiration for the builder's
success thus far. I think the company's doing a bang-up job of selling
their
cats. It is a noteworthy accomplishment.) However, the high risk for them
is
that as soon as one or more competitors, offering the same interior volume
and
accommodations appear, Endeavor's at risk of VERY quickly suffering the
SAME
huge sales slump as did Catalac as soon as a range of much sleeker cats
(Fountaine Pajot, Privilege, Kennex, Fountaine Pajot) appeared on the
sailing
cat scene.
Endeavor's alternative as soon as sleeker-looking models come on line?
They'll have to (1) find a way to hang their hat on some other peg. (i.e.,
"cheapest" power cat," or "best equipped" power cat, or some other
marketing
angle), or (2) make the jump to new tooling and a more stylish exterior.
Of course, there's a third option -- simply hope that no other sleeker
power
cats come to the market place. But the latter is a short-term bet. New
brands/designs ARE coming over the horizon -- ALL of them arguably MUCH
more
stylish than the Endeavors -- models such as Celebrity Yachts' sleeker
looking
40-footer... the pending, US-built Destiny 42....and even the
already-available (and slightly-less-boxy) PDQ 40-plus footer.
Otherwise, I predict Endeavor's "Bronco" is going to demonstrate its own
"slow-speed (or not-so-slow-speed) getaway" . . . to obsolesence.
In closing, I note Jonah's own admission that he drives a "station wagon."
Perhaps that provides the quickest refutation to his own basic argument.
Last
I looked, just about every automobile manufacturer had dropped that design
model from their inventories. The reason? Buyers' dissatisfaction with
that
design's appearance -- "form-following-function" not withstanding.
Rod Gibbons
Cruising Cats USA
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:15:31 -0300
From: Jonah Jones jonah@northrock.bm
Subject: Re: [PCW] and link.....
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 88aa77ab78fd6b0dfbb827fc5ac74ecf@northrock.bm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
agreed on both counts
its for doing stuff, not looking at...
bauhaus..... form follows function
I also drive a station wagon and not an Aston martin
On May 2, 2007, at 1:38 PM, R Bingham wrote:
This looks like one big boat inside . . . . . . . and like a condo on
the
outside.
Just my honest opinion.
Regards
Roger Bingham
France
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007
2:16 PM
Hi Rod,
some interesting observations from you there.
I guess for me, slippery looks are so far down the list of priorities
as to be virtually irrelevant.
I suppose that if it meant more mpg that would get my attention.
Whats important to me is what is available NOW, how much will it cost
and can it perform the tasks that I require of it.
Every year we get another year older, how long would one be waiting for
these new catamarans to come sailing over the horizon?
I'd rather go while I am fit and forty one!
Here in Bermuda I have a 20ft Boston Whaler. I really don't care what
it looks like. It's usually covered with fish guts, pole spears,
painting gear and empty wine bottles. At the end of the day I hose it
down and walk away without a second admiring glance, but I remember the
fun I had.
I can't, by any stretch of the imagination, get into the aesthetics of
a contemporary motor vehicle, either I'm afraid.
I have a station wagon that is covered in oil paint, dog hair and beach
sand and I don't have the time or inclination to spend my weekend
cleaning the wheel rims with a toothbrush.
We hired a car in St Pete this last week, I couldn't even tell you what
it was, they all look the same to me. It drove where we wanted to go
though.
We went aboard a pdq 41 in Miami. The folks who build them are really
nice, so I apologise in advance, but I was left with the impression
that I had been on board a floating hospital room for the elderly.
For my money the endeavour 48 had so much more room, hardware and
possibilities for not a lot more money.
I'm sure it'll get more mpg, but then its lighter and smaller.
I appreciate that there are fancy custom built one offs out there that
can cross oceans and have finely finished teak carpentry etc. But not
for less than 700k; not even close.
I'd rather spend the savings on kyaks, dinghies, fishing rods, dive
gear, good quality wine, and a painting trip to Venice in the Fall
where I can get all the aesthetic nourishment I need.
At the end of the day, if looks are so important with a boat, why would
a catamaran even be a consideration?
Here's hoping that next Summer, my wife and I will be on board
somewhere up in Georgian bay, drinking a glass of something silky and
admiring the beauty of the scenery and not what we are sitting on.
regards jonah.
Gentlemen, let's not mince words. In all aspects, that boat is "butt ugly".
Please, let us maintain a sense of decorum in our discussions and be polite.
And don't forget that beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.
--Listmaster Georgs
Jonah
Congratulations on your new Cat. It looks like a
great boat. I hope you enjoy it. Please continue to
share your progress.
Tim Bennett
PS If you can't say some nice, say nothing.
--- Georgs Kolesnikovs
georgs@powercatamaranworld.com wrote:
Gentlemen, let's not mince words. In all aspects,
that boat is "butt ugly".
Please, let us maintain a sense of decorum in our
discussions and be polite.
And don't forget that beauty is always in the eye of
the beholder.
--Listmaster Georgs
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
I would like to add some comments to this discussion from a designers point of
view.
Firstly, lets just hark back to the Catalac. It was originally designed for
plywood construction, as evidenced by its hard chine hull [typical of Bill
O'Brien designs]and boxy cabin. It would be hard to imagine shapes less suited
to glass fibre construction, and solid glassfibre construction at that. Never
the less when it was put into series production they just reproduced the
plywood boat. No attempt was made to take advantage of the properties of glass
fibre or the advantages concerning shape, styling and surface finish that
female mould production in glass fibre imparts.
One of the questions that a designer asks when he approachs a new design is
"How is this boat going to be built?' ie: is it going to be amateur built by
relatively inexperienced people, is it a more up market one off being built by
professional builders or , is it intended for series production? The design
for amateur construction will probably feature mostly flat panel construction
with perhaps a few styling features like rounded corners, cabin overhangs etc
just to take the boxiness off. One of Its main priorities is ease of
construction but this emphasis does tend to have styling consequences and may
impose limits on the boat.
The professionally built one off design will feature a lot more styling. But
not too much. As the "fancy Eurostyling bits" such as are seen on "Pacific
Harmony" can add significantly to the price. But the professional yard will
probably have CNC cutting machines that can produce more complex shapes from
the designers computer files and considerably mitigate the cost penalty.
If the boat is going into series production then the designer can do a lot of
things to improve the appearance of the boat over that of the amateur built
boat. The reason for this is very simple. You may build 300+ boats of this
design but you only have to build the plug ONCE. So you may as well go the
extra mile with the plug and moulds and incorporate features that would be
prohibitively expensive in a one off because it will certainly pay off in the
long run. Plugs and moulds are very expensive anyway and so putting the effort
into the original design to make it easier to build,more appealing and with a
good finish adds very little to the cost of the moulds. This is especially
true in these days of surface modelling, CNC profile cutters and 5 axis
milling machines.
The original design cost is a very small percentage of the total development
cost of a vessel. That this is true of most consumer products is taken very
seriously by most manufacturers. So why not power catamaran builders?
Regards,
Malcolm Tennant.
MALCOLM TENNANT MULTIHULL DESIGN LTD
PO Box 60513, Titirangi.
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND
Ph: +64 9 817 1988
e-mail: malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
Hi All
It is an unfortunate fact of life that when a product or service is
criticised the owners, prospective purchasers and users of that product or
service feel that they too are the subject of the criticism. I am told that
psychologists have a word (probably a very big word) for this.
I am sure we would all agree that aesthetics, what we as individuals discern
as beautiful or otherwise, is a very personal and subjective matter. There
is no wrong, there is no right, there is only different.
I am also sure that we all appreciate the need for these differences. None
of us would like to see a marina full of identical boats or be in a
favourite anchorage surrounded by clones of our own boat. It is surely the
variety of boats that adds to the visual pleasure. We often spend muchos
dineros to establish our individuality on our boats.
I do not like extremes of styling and agree that form MUST follow function.
I do not like "retro" and see it as an excuse by a designer who cannot come
up with an original idea. I do not drive an Aston Martin. I require that my
boat and house and car, and everything else I buy, be pleasing to the eye;
not at the expense of its purpose but to complement it.
The Endeavor (all models) undoubtedly provide their owners with masses of
living space and masses of pride of ownership and that is right. BUT it is
not my choice.
I wish Jonah, his family, all other Endeavor owners and every boat owner
around the world the best of fortune and a wonderful life aboard - whatever
their choice of vessel.
Regards
Roger Bingham
France