Hi Ed,

You have really struck to the heart of what makes a quality boat, one that
will stand the test of time and not cost an arm or a leg to maintain.  This
is in part, why ABYC was established.  But not all production or custom boat
builders strictly adhere to their recommended practices, which is why the
problems you describe do happen and it sounds like you have experienced most
of them.

Production boat builders should be building exactly the same boat the same
way including electric cable looms, so unless these issues were not
addressed from the beginning then all their boats will be born with the same
generic problem. Manufacturing boats for a competitive market can lead to
the sorts of problems you describe as keeping the price down without
sacrificing quality can be a very fine line to walk.

On the other hand building a different custom boat every time, these
tradesmen are not working to the same repetitive discipline.  Where things
are placed or run is somewhat of a judgment call made by an individual,
which is a very good reason to have an experienced project manager looking
after your best interest throughout the construction.  Electricians like to
be the first to run their cables with the plumbers coming in second and
painters coming in last and dropping paint all over things.  I have had to
have electricians move their cable trays up to allow the fuel and water
pipes to run underneath the electrics.  I know it sounds like commonsense to
put electrics up and plumbing down but these tradesmen don't think, they act
and have probably never owned a boat so they are not aware of the serious
problems they can create.

Service accessibility and replacing parts is not something many R&D types
think enough about, they're more concerned about fitting "it" all in in the
confined space they have to work with.  I had heated discussions with the
lead designer on the placement of engine room items on a production boat,
unfortunately I lost and he did it his way which will prove unfortunate for
owners when they have to crawl around a hot engine to reach a circuit
breaker and other equipment.  Many boat builders have had boating experience
which is why they became involved in boat building, others came up as
tradesmen who started their own business and the academics, well, they know
all the theory.  Academic designers that don't have boating experience don't
realize the difficulties they can create for an owner, don't get me wrong we
do need their engineering expertise.

Specialty hinges and latches like many other things on a boat are subject to
change by most manufacturers as they too are in competition for market share
and they have to keep changing and updating their product line. Carrying a
lot of obsolete stock for ten years to satisfy the occasional customer is
not financially viable and if they did carry it everyone would complain
about the high cost of the items, like they do with Volvo parts.  In this
area the boater will have to be creative and find a different item to suit
even if it means fabricating a single item or updating all the hinges or
latches so they match.

Before you purchase a production boat you should crawl all over it and ask
the salesman to pull wall and overhead panels off if they're detachable, so
you can see what's behind the glitz.  Most people are sold by the finish and
the stated performance and only take a glance at the things that could turn
their dream boat into a nightmare.  If you can find someone who has owned
the same or a similar model from the same builder and they are willing to
talk to you about their experiences with their boat and it comes out
positive then you will be in a better position to make the decision as to
whether this is the right company and the right boat for you.

Cheers,

Graham

Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:48:09 -0500
From: sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 8CC33483BB67DA6-3C10-146F8@webmail-d093.sysops.aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Another issue that would be nice to think about for those of us that will
never have the ability to order that new custom build is the cost of
maintenance, repairs, and up grades. Have none of the people that build
boats
of any kind, but particularly production boats, ever gone back into one that
has been on the water for five or ten years? The lack of conduits of proper
size for running wiring, plumbing, and cables. Wire that is not tinned.
Connections and splices that are hidden somewhere. Changing color coding of
wires in a run, and sizes that only work when the vessel is new and
batteries
are fresh and connectors are shinny. Why does the plumbing have to be on top
of the electrics, so when it leaks you have a power failure? Why does the
refrigeration cooling hose always leak salt water onto the compressor so
that
when you find it, it is not a dollar hose clamp, but a $2K plus
refrigeration
system? Why can't companies maintain common mounting dimensions and methods
when they change colors or materials, etc. Do they ever think that you don't
always have to reinvent the wheel when changing out parts? Speciality hinges
and latches that fit a molded part, but won't be available next year. Access
to systems that are assembled between moldings during production, that
require
tearing the boat apart to repair or replace. Sometimes it is very difficult
to
explain to someone that is knowledgeable about most things, and to have them
imagine what it will cost for parts and labor (compared to most of the
things
you know about, excluding airplanes) and then multiply by five if we are
lucky, and eight if not. With all of the planning and design that goes into
building a boat, it sometimes seems that boat builders don't see the trees
for
the forest.

Ed Schwerin

-----Original Message-----
From: gram rupert gramario@tin.it
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 6:45 am
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Graham's analogy does not always stand up. For instance, if the
smaller condo is in Monte Carlo and the larger one in Liverpool (or,
name your place in an area near you), like hell does it stand up!
rupert.

Graham wrote: But comparing a 40' powerboat to a 40' power catamaran
is similar to comparing a 2 bedroom 2

On 13 Nov 2009, at 23:12, Bill Carlson, Sr. wrote:

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:20 -0500
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs gxk@earthlink.net
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34
Message-ID: 72667B7E-CD68-481C-82AD-5BB3ADA9DAFF@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Thanks a lot, Russell, for taking the time to more fully explain how
the Buzzards Bay powercat is evolving.

Is the new Buzzards Bay 34 pictured on either of your sites?

--Georgs

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:00:18 -0500
From: "Pelchat Family" pelchat@charter.net
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 5F56C19690954D5B825D0589410E3EB0@unattend
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

. . . and others in the house murmured " Amen"

John Pelchat

----- Original Message -----
From: sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:25:15 -0500
From: "Russell Hunt" info@mdcats.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] buyer customizations
Message-ID: 20091114182515.7os2xgwm92m880o8@webmail.uplinkearth.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

Mr. Deering and members,
You had asked - What considerations have to go into buyer
customizations, what are some of the more common customizations, and
how do they affect cost?
Well, this is what we've learned on the subject. My company has focused
on the low volume (less than 2 doz per year) production of power
catamarans.  At this volume, it has been our experience that we need to
be some where in between a production and semi-custom builder which is
a difficult position. I understand definitions vary, but in my mind, a
semi-custom build has a common molded hull (maybe deck as well) and is
very flexible on the systems, layout, and finish.  This is generally
done as a time and materials project.  At our volume we try to have
known options and build on a fixed price basis, but with the ability to
accommodate a clients particular requests.

A good example of a custom request is the cockpit.  Our Buzzards Bay 34
has no built in seating.  I actually like it, as it provides great
storage, (perfect for shore power cords, shoes, wash down gear) and the
cockpit usually gets deck chairs thrown there anyway, but so many folks
like the versatility that an open clear cockpit allows.  So a custom
option could be a cockpit seat.  One-off construction of this part is
expensive, which could be lowered considerably through tooling ( and
thus becoming a standard option in the process) but we've never seen
any consensus on design so this option remains custom. If most folks
wanted the seat we would look at modifying our cockpit tool to add the
seat right into the mold. A builder has to be careful not to design out
customer preferences.  I agree with Mr. Graham that too many options
leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth.  I would prefer to have more
standard content, a higher base price, but deliver a  boat that can
actually be used as standard.  "Oh, you actually want to go out in
it...?".

Inside the boat, electronics and entertainment systems can be custom
optioned with even higher volume (up to 100 boat a year) builders.
We don't like messing around with our mechanical systems and I would
expect most builders are in this camp.  Here, building the same thing
over again pays big dividends to the owner. Based on historical data, a
good builder knows whats good and what isn't, and knows how to design
and build out problems.

Cabinetry and layout we are more flexible on.  Here again though, we
certainly take to heart what our current owners like and don't like,
and if the evolution of our Buzzards Bay 33 into the 34 is any
indication, this pragmatic approach and continual evolution of cruising
features certainly benefits the end user if his mission is the same as
those previous builds.

Some other common requests are wood species of the interior.  Our
standard offering is cherry.  Why Cherry? The market seems to like it
and its allot less expensive than teak.  Last I checked, Cherry was $7
a board foot, and teak was $25! Optional woods are Mahogany and Teak.
There many other woods popping up, but with these woods, I know there
are reliable sources of quality plywood with matching veneers.  Most of
these exotic woods you here about, the builder has to order up veneers
and vacuum bag on these veneers to plywood to make up the cabinetry.
This extra step drives up the cost of the exotic wood option quite a
bit, even if the wood is selling for less than say teak.

Another area is engines.  We build our Buzzards Bay 34 with both diesel
stern drives and outboards.  Its relatively easy to accommodate a
buyers preference for a particular brand of outboard, though even this
is getting more complex thanks to integrated electronics (think fuel
management) and there is still the propping to do. Switching to a new
diesel propulsion system never before installed by the builder however
is a different story. There is the engine bed design to consider,
clearance of internal structure (is that oil pan gonna hit the
stringer?) as well as drive mounting height, steering, etc.  Today, the
builder may even have to deal with the software and potential issues
from joy stick controls.  This all involves much design and engineering
costs.  The buyer may not want to pay the true costs of this option.
But I think as is often the case, the builder will absorb some or much
of this cost in the hopes that he will make his boat more marketable.

The above is some of our everyday issues when it comes to custom options.
Custom options are a difficult thing.  Boats are just so complex, its
hard to see all ends, what will be affected and how.  I know they can
be a source of much attention and stress in a build, even as something
as simple as a stereo. or wood species. It's not always a bad thing to
copy.  I like the fact we've even given copying a better title.  I
think they call it "best practices" now.

Russell Hunt, President
Multihull Development, Inc. and Buzzards Bay Catamarans
Office #: 508-403-0301
Cell #: 508-759-4111
Other #: 800-882-7083
Email us at: info@MDcats.com
Check out our website at : www.MDcats.com
http://www.yachtworld.com/multihulldevelopment/

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:34:56 -0800
From: "Jim Meader" jim@rmtmail.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] buyer customizations
Message-ID: A5744FD3-5416-44BE-A3F7-91B0C2C365AF@rmtmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset="us-ascii"

I have to agree this is one of the best discussions To read.

Jim Meader
DRE # 00493029
RE/MAX Today
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, "Russell Hunt" info@mdcats.com wrote:

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:00:47 -0800
From: "Graham" graham@trawlercatmarine.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: E13E6FDFC36F41038FDDD741BDEC5412@Marion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
power-catamaran-request@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:00 PM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 55, Issue 5

Send Power-Catamaran mailing list submissions to
power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com

Hello Mark,

I agree with you there have been a lot of horror stories about custom and
semi-custom builds and it can happen to even the largest boat builder so
there's no predictable pattern here.  It really boils down to each person
doing his own due diligence and having a project manager looking after his
best interest if he doesn't have the ability to do it himself.  Fortunately
the majority of builds are highly successful and as Russell pointed out it
may not cost much more than some production boats and you can have a much
bigger say in almost every part of your boat.

Now to your questions;  (a)Life Cycle Costs: Having the right boat and
having a new boat with all new, tested, equipment should ensure a fairly
trouble free cruise.  Put 100,000 miles on a car and things will start to
break down.  Not that you can't cruise a 10 year old or older boat but you
had better be very good at fixing things or have deep pockets to call in the
serviceman.  Salt water is a harsh environment and it does have an affect on
the life cycle of many parts on a boat.  You don't pump salt water through
your cars cooling system or air-conditioning pump and you don't run the car
engine 24 hours a day, so there are more dissimilar things between cars and
boats than similar so I don't believe this is a good analogy.

Preventative maintenance does help to prevent 'surprise' breakdowns at the
most inopportune times and you should be prepared to change a water pump
impeller at some time. Likewise you should strip and clean the
heat-exchangers and replace their anodes according to the engine
manufacturers schedule.  One advantage with most catamarans, if you happen
to be cruising in an area with a 5 foot tidal range or more, is that you
should be able to let the cat dry out on its two hulls and do a bottom job
without the haul out fee, but you need to be aware of environmental issues
when cleaning off the hulls.  While you're at it you may have to change some
zincs and ensure all your thru-hulls are not blocked or partially blocked.
Another advantage of a power catamaran, if it is set up with two independent
engine rooms, is that you should still be able to make a safe harbor on one
engine if you do lose the other.  Having said this, duplicated systems, two
of everything, is part of the extra cost you must pay for a power catamaran
over a powerboat that usually shares most of the same systems.

The interior of the boat should not cause any major issues due to the salty
environment as most people keep it at a comfortable living temperature using
heat, cool air or good old fashioned open hatch breezes. Even the engine
rooms where salt water is used, it is always contained in pipes or pumps,
but if you do get a salt water leak, after you've fixed it make sure you get
rid of the salt water and wash the area with fresh water to get rid of all
the salt and the heat of the engine room should then keep everything dry.

A power catamaran is not a 'wet-ass sailing boat' with spray flying about
and getting down inside the boat leaving its tell tale, sticky to the touch,
mess everywhere.  I used some domestic appliances on my own cat and only had
to replace them after 5 years of living aboard full time.  I found the
convenience of full size 'steel' appliances far outweighed the excessive
cost of 'small SS marine appliances' and they're much cheaper to replace.
We cooked a large Thanks Giving turkey in our oven and invited four other
cruisers to join us during our stop in the Canary Islands before the
Atlantic crossing in 1991 and you can't do that in most marine cookers.

(b) Long -v- big -v- expensive:  I assume here that you are not talking
about a production boat as their price will be pretty much set depending on
what options you might wish to add.  So here goes; Estimating the cost of a
boat today is definitely not a "best guess" scenario; hopefully those people
are all out of business or have improved their estimating methods.  A
builder must have at least a set of 'bid plans', a very detailed
specification, a detailed BOM and a laminate schedule with the fiberglass
square footage areas known.  The information must provide enough detail for
the builder to see the construction method, the tankage information,
electrical wiring and plumbing schematics, the furniture and cabinetry
requirements, quality of finish expected, and the scope of supply of the
complete set of construction plans he will eventually receive.  With this
information he has a fighting chance of providing an estimate and I stress
the word 'estimate'.  Most custom and semi-custom builders will not provide
a fixed price due to the time involved to construct the boat and the
volatility of the market and price fluctuations which is nearly always in an
upwards direction.  A barrel of oil hovers around $75 and is predicted to
only rise and this affects everything that is delivered to a manufacturer
and the final delivery of the manufactured product to the builder's yard.
Of course resin is a major component in a boat and this continues to rise
year in year out.  Each builder has his own method of payment which
typically includes a deposit and scheduled or top up payments for major
purchases and invoices presented.

Could you really build a spacious boat for a relatively small incremental
price increase if the systems were kept relatively fixed?  Not really as a
size increase is still an increase in material and man hours.  Some savings
can be made in the quantity and types of equipment you fit and in the
quality and type of finish you would be happy with.  For instance a work
boat quality finish would cost less than a super yacht quality finish or
somewhere in between.  Most boat builders are fair business men and if
they're not they may not be around for long, except for some who keep
popping up under different names, but that's another story.  A boat builder
is entitled to make a profit the same as any other business and you should
find all boat builders will quote about the same to build the same boat, if
anyone comes in way under, then they either made a mistake, or run like
hell, because you may very well finish up paying a lot more from the "cheap
guy".

(c) Cost game changers?:  New technology almost always costs more in the
beginning.  You only have to look at the electronics industry for perfect
examples of that, your $1,000.00 computer is now $500.00 in less than three
years.  Basic business requires that a company recover its R&D costs
typically over a 3 year period, depending on the industry, the size of the
investment and the market, etc.  It is possible but unlikely that a
revolutionary new technology that would replace fiberglass cloth or resin
and save thousands of dollars to build boats will come on the market and if
it did its R&D and material costs would still have to be paid for, which
would automatically inflate the price.  Builders do all they can to keep
costs down and sell their products at a competitive price and it's up to
each prospective boat purchaser to thoroughly research the market and decide
which boat represents the best value for him.

The only realistic way to save money on a boat that you will be happy and
comfortable cruising on day after day is to look at its performance and buy
or have built a boat that is very fuel efficient as this will save you money
year after year, especially with the predicted permanently increasing cost
of a barrel of oil.  This makes some of the 'green options' now available
definitely worth taking a second look at.

Cheers,

Graham

Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:22:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark mark424x@yahoo.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Cc: info@mdcats.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 309879.16145.qm@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Many thanks to both Graham and Russell, your comments are incredibly
valuable.  I think many only hear the horror stories of custom builds gone
wrong or think it's very expensive and tend to eliminate that option early.

A couple follow ups while you are on the line:

(a) Life cycle costs: There is the old joke that cruising is fixing your
boat in distant ports.  What is your sense of both the truth and the cause.
Is this a perception that arises from many long range cruisers
sailing/motoring 30 year old boats on limited budgets?  Inconsistent quality
in marine mechanics?  Is it a combination of harsh environment and high
parts cost due to low volume sales?  While I have no doubt that salt water
is a hash environment, when you think about a car driving around pot holed
streets caked with ice and salt, well that's a harsh environment as well.
Should we just be keeping the boat sealed and de-humidified and use cheap
consumer grade components (i.e. harden the vessel instead of each part)?  Is
it a result of too many gee whiz systems? Is it a result of space
constraints, so repairs are that much harder and thus delayed more than they
should be?  My observation is that a fair proportion of cruisers fall into
one of two categories, either the almost completeyself sufficient
do-it-yourselferor the folks with a substantial budget - e.g. the self
restored 67 Mustang or the big benz.  What is stopping the Camry or Honda
Pilot of boats?

(b) Long vs Big vs expensive:  In the old days people would estimate the
cost of a boat in $/lb.  Beuhlermay still do that.  I've read many designers
say (relative to monos) that long narrow boats aren't any more expensive
than short/wide.  Yet we all know that the retail cost of a boat goes up
exponentially with length/size.  Could you really build a spacious boat for
a relatively small incremental price increase if the systems were kept
relatively fixed?  Is it that slip fees so dominate the financial equation
that people want to pack as much into as little as possible?  Is it that the
consumer has been brainwashed and the guy who wants a 50' boat compares all
50' boats and wants the one with more stuff and the guy that had a 40' boat
in his head won't look at the 50'er that's a stretched 40?

(c) Cost game changers?:  Is it just an incremental game of tweaking and
optimizing, or are there opportunities for new materials or technology to
drive major cost savings?  It could be the massive investment in composites
by the aircraft industry, the drops in price of CNC mills and cutters,....if
you could dream up a technology - or make an existing technology much
cheaper - that would lower production costs by 20, 30, or 40% - what would
it be?

Many thanks!

Mark

Mark Long
Marina del Rey, CA

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 55, Issue 6

Graham, you are preaching to the choir here. I've done a lot of maintenance,
repair, and upgrades on a lot of different boats and as you said run into
most, if not all, of the problems that most boats have. I would like to think
with boat marketing as competitive as it has to be today that some companies
would look at the common sense issues that would make a major difference in
the cost of owning a boat, not just the original purchase price. Most of these
issues would be a minor expense to incorporate into the design and
construction of a boat compared to repair in some exotic place (read
expensive). If you were at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show, you would think that
every new boat would be perfect, and never need repair. But as unbelievable as
all that money to buy all that glitz and glamour, they too will have problems
eventually and the common sense construction will be evident, or not. And
maybe at that level, money doesn't really matter at all. Ego, doesn't seem to
have a price. But in the real world, if a boat company builds it right and
makes it pretty and functional, it has to be a win-win situation. I think most
boaters, like myself, feel somewhat insulted when you run into a system
problem that could just as easily been done right, but since it was covered up
and hidden no one cared to do it right. Right doesn't have to cost more, or at
least not that much more.

Thanks for your contribution to this list.

Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham graham@trawlercatmarine.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 4:22 pm
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Hi Ed,

You have really struck to the heart of what makes a quality boat, one that
will stand the test of time and not cost an arm or a leg to maintain.  This
is in part, why ABYC was established.  But not all production or custom boat
builders strictly adhere to their recommended practices, which is why the
problems you describe do happen and it sounds like you have experienced most
of them.

Production boat builders should be building exactly the same boat the same
way including electric cable looms, so unless these issues were not
addressed from the beginning then all their boats will be born with the same
generic problem. Manufacturing boats for a competitive market can lead to
the sorts of problems you describe as keeping the price down without
sacrificing quality can be a very fine line to walk.

On the other hand building a different custom boat every time, these
tradesmen are not working to the same repetitive discipline.  Where things
are placed or run is somewhat of a judgment call made by an individual,
which is a very good reason to have an experienced project manager looking
after your best interest throughout the construction.  Electricians like to
be the first to run their cables with the plumbers coming in second and
painters coming in last and dropping paint all over things.  I have had to
have electricians move their cable trays up to allow the fuel and water
pipes to run underneath the electrics.  I know it sounds like commonsense to
put electrics up and plumbing down but these tradesmen don't think, they act
and have probably never owned a boat so they are not aware of the serious
problems they can create.

Service accessibility and replacing parts is not something many R&D types
think enough about, they're more concerned about fitting "it" all in in the
confined space they have to work with.  I had heated discussions with the
lead designer on the placement of engine room items on a production boat,
unfortunately I lost and he did it his way which will prove unfortunate for
owners when they have to crawl around a hot engine to reach a circuit
breaker and other equipment.  Many boat builders have had boating experience
which is why they became involved in boat building, others came up as
tradesmen who started their own business and the academics, well, they know
all the theory.  Academic designers that don't have boating experience don't
realize the difficulties they can create for an owner, don't get me wrong we
do need their engineering expertise.

Specialty hinges and latches like many other things on a boat are subject to
change by most manufacturers as they too are in competition for market share
and they have to keep changing and updating their product line. Carrying a
lot of obsolete stock for ten years to satisfy the occasional customer is
not financially viable and if they did carry it everyone would complain
about the high cost of the items, like they do with Volvo parts.  In this
area the boater will have to be creative and find a different item to suit
even if it means fabricating a single item or updating all the hinges or
latches so they match.

Before you purchase a production boat you should crawl all over it and ask
the salesman to pull wall and overhead panels off if they're detachable, so
you can see what's behind the glitz.  Most people are sold by the finish and
the stated performance and only take a glance at the things that could turn
their dream boat into a nightmare.  If you can find someone who has owned
the same or a similar model from the same builder and they are willing to
talk to you about their experiences with their boat and it comes out
positive then you will be in a better position to make the decision as to
whether this is the right company and the right boat for you.

Cheers,

Graham

Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:48:09 -0500
From: sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 8CC33483BB67DA6-3C10-146F8@webmail-d093.sysops.aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Another issue that would be nice to think about for those of us that will
never have the ability to order that new custom build is the cost of
maintenance, repairs, and up grades. Have none of the people that build
boats
of any kind, but particularly production boats, ever gone back into one that
has been on the water for five or ten years? The lack of conduits of proper
size for running wiring, plumbing, and cables. Wire that is not tinned.
Connections and splices that are hidden somewhere. Changing color coding of
wires in a run, and sizes that only work when the vessel is new and
batteries
are fresh and connectors are shinny. Why does the plumbing have to be on top
of the electrics, so when it leaks you have a power failure? Why does the
refrigeration cooling hose always leak salt water onto the compressor so
that
when you find it, it is not a dollar hose clamp, but a $2K plus
refrigeration
system? Why can't companies maintain common mounting dimensions and methods
when they change colors or materials, etc. Do they ever think that you don't
always have to reinvent the wheel when changing out parts? Speciality hinges
and latches that fit a molded part, but won't be available next year. Access
to systems that are assembled between moldings during production, that
require
tearing the boat apart to repair or replace. Sometimes it is very difficult
to
explain to someone that is knowledgeable about most things, and to have them
imagine what it will cost for parts and labor (compared to most of the
things
you know about, excluding airplanes) and then multiply by five if we are
lucky, and eight if not. With all of the planning and design that goes into
building a boat, it sometimes seems that boat builders don't see the trees
for
the forest.

Ed Schwerin

-----Original Message-----
From: gram rupert gramario@tin.it
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 6:45 am
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Graham's analogy does not always stand up. For instance, if the
smaller condo is in Monte Carlo and the larger one in Liverpool (or,
name your place in an area near you), like hell does it stand up!
rupert.

Graham wrote: But comparing a 40' powerboat to a 40' power catamaran
is similar to comparing a 2 bedroom 2

On 13 Nov 2009, at 23:12, Bill Carlson, Sr. wrote:

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:20 -0500
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs gxk@earthlink.net
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34
Message-ID: 72667B7E-CD68-481C-82AD-5BB3ADA9DAFF@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Thanks a lot, Russell, for taking the time to more fully explain how
the Buzzards Bay powercat is evolving.

Is the new Buzzards Bay 34 pictured on either of your sites?

--Georgs

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:00:18 -0500
From: "Pelchat Family" pelchat@charter.net
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 5F56C19690954D5B825D0589410E3EB0@unattend
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

. . . and others in the house murmured " Amen"

John Pelchat

----- Original Message -----
From: sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:25:15 -0500
From: "Russell Hunt" info@mdcats.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] buyer customizations
Message-ID: 20091114182515.7os2xgwm92m880o8@webmail.uplinkearth.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"

Mr. Deering and members,
You had asked - What considerations have to go into buyer
customizations, what are some of the more common customizations, and
how do they affect cost?
Well, this is what we've learned on the subject. My company has focused
on the low volume (less than 2 doz per year) production of power
catamarans.  At this volume, it has been our experience that we need to
be some where in between a production and semi-custom builder which is
a difficult position. I understand definitions vary, but in my mind, a
semi-custom build has a common molded hull (maybe deck as well) and is
very flexible on the systems, layout, and finish.  This is generally
done as a time and materials project.  At our volume we try to have
known options and build on a fixed price basis, but with the ability to
accommodate a clients particular requests.

A good example of a custom request is the cockpit.  Our Buzzards Bay 34
has no built in seating.  I actually like it, as it provides great
storage, (perfect for shore power cords, shoes, wash down gear) and the
cockpit usually gets deck chairs thrown there anyway, but so many folks
like the versatility that an open clear cockpit allows.  So a custom
option could be a cockpit seat.  One-off construction of this part is
expensive, which could be lowered considerably through tooling ( and
thus becoming a standard option in the process) but we've never seen
any consensus on design so this option remains custom. If most folks
wanted the seat we would look at modifying our cockpit tool to add the
seat right into the mold. A builder has to be careful not to design out
customer preferences.  I agree with Mr. Graham that too many options
leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth.  I would prefer to have more
standard content, a higher base price, but deliver a  boat that can
actually be used as standard.  "Oh, you actually want to go out in
it...?".

Inside the boat, electronics and entertainment systems can be custom
optioned with even higher volume (up to 100 boat a year) builders.
We don't like messing around with our mechanical systems and I would
expect most builders are in this camp.  Here, building the same thing
over again pays big dividends to the owner. Based on historical data, a
good builder knows whats good and what isn't, and knows how to design
and build out problems.

Cabinetry and layout we are more flexible on.  Here again though, we
certainly take to heart what our current owners like and don't like,
and if the evolution of our Buzzards Bay 33 into the 34 is any
indication, this pragmatic approach and continual evolution of cruising
features certainly benefits the end user if his mission is the same as
those previous builds.

Some other common requests are wood species of the interior.  Our
standard offering is cherry.  Why Cherry? The market seems to like it
and its allot less expensive than teak.  Last I checked, Cherry was $7
a board foot, and teak was $25! Optional woods are Mahogany and Teak.
There many other woods popping up, but with these woods, I know there
are reliable sources of quality plywood with matching veneers.  Most of
these exotic woods you here about, the builder has to order up veneers
and vacuum bag on these veneers to plywood to make up the cabinetry.
This extra step drives up the cost of the exotic wood option quite a
bit, even if the wood is selling for less than say teak.

Another area is engines.  We build our Buzzards Bay 34 with both diesel
stern drives and outboards.  Its relatively easy to accommodate a
buyers preference for a particular brand of outboard, though even this
is getting more complex thanks to integrated electronics (think fuel
management) and there is still the propping to do. Switching to a new
diesel propulsion system never before installed by the builder however
is a different story. There is the engine bed design to consider,
clearance of internal structure (is that oil pan gonna hit the
stringer?) as well as drive mounting height, steering, etc.  Today, the
builder may even have to deal with the software and potential issues
from joy stick controls.  This all involves much design and engineering
costs.  The buyer may not want to pay the true costs of this option.
But I think as is often the case, the builder will absorb some or much
of this cost in the hopes that he will make his boat more marketable.

The above is some of our everyday issues when it comes to custom options.
Custom options are a difficult thing.  Boats are just so complex, its
hard to see all ends, what will be affected and how.  I know they can
be a source of much attention and stress in a build, even as something
as simple as a stereo. or wood species. It's not always a bad thing to
copy.  I like the fact we've even given copying a better title.  I
think they call it "best practices" now.

Russell Hunt, President
Multihull Development, Inc. and Buzzards Bay Catamarans
Office #: 508-403-0301
Cell #: 508-759-4111
Other #: 800-882-7083
Email us at: info@MDcats.com
Check out our website at : www.MDcats.com
http://www.yachtworld.com/multihulldevelopment/

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:34:56 -0800
From: "Jim Meader" jim@rmtmail.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] buyer customizations
Message-ID: A5744FD3-5416-44BE-A3F7-91B0C2C365AF@rmtmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset="us-ascii"

I have to agree this is one of the best discussions To read.

Jim Meader
DRE # 00493029
RE/MAX Today
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, "Russell Hunt" info@mdcats.com wrote:

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:00:47 -0800
From: "Graham" graham@trawlercatmarine.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: E13E6FDFC36F41038FDDD741BDEC5412@Marion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
power-catamaran-request@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:00 PM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 55, Issue 5

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Hello Mark,

I agree with you there have been a lot of horror stories about custom and
semi-custom builds and it can happen to even the largest boat builder so
there's no predictable pattern here.  It really boils down to each person
doing his own due diligence and having a project manager looking after his
best interest if he doesn't have the ability to do it himself.  Fortunately
the majority of builds are highly successful and as Russell pointed out it
may not cost much more than some production boats and you can have a much
bigger say in almost every part of your boat.

Now to your questions;  (a)Life Cycle Costs: Having the right boat and
having a new boat with all new, tested, equipment should ensure a fairly
trouble free cruise.  Put 100,000 miles on a car and things will start to
break down.  Not that you can't cruise a 10 year old or older boat but you
had better be very good at fixing things or have deep pockets to call in the
serviceman.  Salt water is a harsh environment and it does have an affect on
the life cycle of many parts on a boat.  You don't pump salt water through
your cars cooling system or air-conditioning pump and you don't run the car
engine 24 hours a day, so there are more dissimilar things between cars and
boats than similar so I don't believe this is a good analogy.

Preventative maintenance does help to prevent 'surprise' breakdowns at the
most inopportune times and you should be prepared to change a water pump
impeller at some time. Likewise you should strip and clean the
heat-exchangers and replace their anodes according to the engine
manufacturers schedule.  One advantage with most catamarans, if you happen
to be cruising in an area with a 5 foot tidal range or more, is that you
should be able to let the cat dry out on its two hulls and do a bottom job
without the haul out fee, but you need to be aware of environmental issues
when cleaning off the hulls.  While you're at it you may have to change some
zincs and ensure all your thru-hulls are not blocked or partially blocked.
Another advantage of a power catamaran, if it is set up with two independent
engine rooms, is that you should still be able to make a safe harbor on one
engine if you do lose the other.  Having said this, duplicated systems, two
of everything, is part of the extra cost you must pay for a power catamaran
over a powerboat that usually shares most of the same systems.

The interior of the boat should not cause any major issues due to the salty
environment as most people keep it at a comfortable living temperature using
heat, cool air or good old fashioned open hatch breezes. Even the engine
rooms where salt water is used, it is always contained in pipes or pumps,
but if you do get a salt water leak, after you've fixed it make sure you get
rid of the salt water and wash the area with fresh water to get rid of all
the salt and the heat of the engine room should then keep everything dry.

A power catamaran is not a 'wet-ass sailing boat' with spray flying about
and getting down inside the boat leaving its tell tale, sticky to the touch,
mess everywhere.  I used some domestic appliances on my own cat and only had
to replace them after 5 years of living aboard full time.  I found the
convenience of full size 'steel' appliances far outweighed the excessive
cost of 'small SS marine appliances' and they're much cheaper to replace.
We cooked a large Thanks Giving turkey in our oven and invited four other
cruisers to join us during our stop in the Canary Islands before the
Atlantic crossing in 1991 and you can't do that in most marine cookers.

(b) Long -v- big -v- expensive:  I assume here that you are not talking
about a production boat as their price will be pretty much set depending on
what options you might wish to add.  So here goes; Estimating the cost of a
boat today is definitely not a "best guess" scenario; hopefully those people
are all out of business or have improved their estimating methods.  A
builder must have at least a set of 'bid plans', a very detailed
specification, a detailed BOM and a laminate schedule with the fiberglass
square footage areas known.  The information must provide enough detail for
the builder to see the construction method, the tankage information,
electrical wiring and plumbing schematics, the furniture and cabinetry
requirements, quality of finish expected, and the scope of supply of the
complete set of construction plans he will eventually receive.  With this
information he has a fighting chance of providing an estimate and I stress
the word 'estimate'.  Most custom and semi-custom builders will not provide
a fixed price due to the time involved to construct the boat and the
volatility of the market and price fluctuations which is nearly always in an
upwards direction.  A barrel of oil hovers around $75 and is predicted to
only rise and this affects everything that is delivered to a manufacturer
and the final delivery of the manufactured product to the builder's yard.
Of course resin is a major component in a boat and this continues to rise
year in year out.  Each builder has his own method of payment which
typically includes a deposit and scheduled or top up payments for major
purchases and invoices presented.

Could you really build a spacious boat for a relatively small incremental
price increase if the systems were kept relatively fixed?  Not really as a
size increase is still an increase in material and man hours.  Some savings
can be made in the quantity and types of equipment you fit and in the
quality and type of finish you would be happy with.  For instance a work
boat quality finish would cost less than a super yacht quality finish or
somewhere in between.  Most boat builders are fair business men and if
they're not they may not be around for long, except for some who keep
popping up under different names, but that's another story.  A boat builder
is entitled to make a profit the same as any other business and you should
find all boat builders will quote about the same to build the same boat, if
anyone comes in way under, then they either made a mistake, or run like
hell, because you may very well finish up paying a lot more from the "cheap
guy".

(c) Cost game changers?:  New technology almost always costs more in the
beginning.  You only have to look at the electronics industry for perfect
examples of that, your $1,000.00 computer is now $500.00 in less than three
years.  Basic business requires that a company recover its R&D costs
typically over a 3 year period, depending on the industry, the size of the
investment and the market, etc.  It is possible but unlikely that a
revolutionary new technology that would replace fiberglass cloth or resin
and save thousands of dollars to build boats will come on the market and if
it did its R&D and material costs would still have to be paid for, which
would automatically inflate the price.  Builders do all they can to keep
costs down and sell their products at a competitive price and it's up to
each prospective boat purchaser to thoroughly research the market and decide
which boat represents the best value for him.

The only realistic way to save money on a boat that you will be happy and
comfortable cruising on day after day is to look at its performance and buy
or have built a boat that is very fuel efficient as this will save you money
year after year, especially with the predicted permanently increasing cost
of a barrel of oil.  This makes some of the 'green options' now available
definitely worth taking a second look at.

Cheers,

Graham

Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:22:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark mark424x@yahoo.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Cc: info@mdcats.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 309879.16145.qm@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Many thanks to both Graham and Russell, your comments are incredibly
valuable.  I think many only hear the horror stories of custom builds gone
wrong or think it's very expensive and tend to eliminate that option early.

A couple follow ups while you are on the line:

(a) Life cycle costs: There is the old joke that cruising is fixing your
boat in distant ports.  What is your sense of both the truth and the cause.
Is this a perception that arises from many long range cruisers
sailing/motoring 30 year old boats on limited budgets?  Inconsistent quality
in marine mechanics?  Is it a combination of harsh environment and high
parts cost due to low volume sales?  While I have no doubt that salt water
is a hash environment, when you think about a car driving around pot holed
streets caked with ice and salt, well that's a harsh environment as well.
Should we just be keeping the boat sealed and de-humidified and use cheap
consumer grade components (i.e. harden the vessel instead of each part)?  Is
it a result of too many gee whiz systems? Is it a result of space
constraints, so repairs are that much harder and thus delayed more than they
should be?  My observation is that a fair proportion of cruisers fall into
one of two categories, either the almost completeyself sufficient
do-it-yourselferor the folks with a substantial budget - e.g. the self
restored 67 Mustang or the big benz.  What is stopping the Camry or Honda
Pilot of boats?

(b) Long vs Big vs expensive:  In the old days people would estimate the
cost of a boat in $/lb.  Beuhlermay still do that.  I've read many designers
say (relative to monos) that long narrow boats aren't any more expensive
than short/wide.  Yet we all know that the retail cost of a boat goes up
exponentially with length/size.  Could you really build a spacious boat for
a relatively small incremental price increase if the systems were kept
relatively fixed?  Is it that slip fees so dominate the financial equation
that people want to pack as much into as little as possible?  Is it that the
consumer has been brainwashed and the guy who wants a 50' boat compares all
50' boats and wants the one with more stuff and the guy that had a 40' boat
in his head won't look at the 50'er that's a stretched 40?

(c) Cost game changers?:  Is it just an incremental game of tweaking and
optimizing, or are there opportunities for new materials or technology to
drive major cost savings?  It could be the massive investment in composites
by the aircraft industry, the drops in price of CNC mills and cutters,....if
you could dream up a technology - or make an existing technology much
cheaper - that would lower production costs by 20, 30, or 40% - what would
it be?

Many thanks!

Mark

Mark Long
Marina del Rey, CA

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