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Steve Sipe

Wed, Jun 19, 2013 10:35 PM

I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some
direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be
concise as possible.

Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from
prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak
caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear
was all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently
swamped (no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all
was retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the
console, Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return
however, in the interim, the radar has stopped functioning.

A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted
a report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies
"like kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss
from theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it
should be replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end
equipment and intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and
they'll make the call based upon the findings. They won't replace any of
the other gear since it functions, despite the fact that if one piece is
replaced with NEW, due to incompatibility of current vs. discontinued
gear, the remaining gear is rendered non-functional. Replacing it all
constitutes an upgrade, and the policy specifically denies an upgrade.
My initial estimate from a highly-regarded electronics service firm
recommended replacement that was double the $20K cap on my electronics
coverage. The carrier pretty much dismissed it out of hand. Everything
must go through the surveyor.

I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been
retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current
status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster
whether she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel
and crew on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her
reply: ".....I have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and
your policy does not cover fear of loss."

I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the
electronics.

My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that
I'm in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective,
I'm not getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that.

I'd welcome any input.

--
Steve Sipe
Solo 4303 "Maerin"
Middle River, MD

I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be concise as possible. Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear was all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently swamped (no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all was retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the console, Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return however, in the interim, the radar has stopped functioning. A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted a report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies "like kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss from theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it should be replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end equipment and intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and they'll make the call based upon the findings. They won't replace any of the other gear since it functions, despite the fact that if one piece is replaced with NEW, due to incompatibility of current vs. discontinued gear, the remaining gear is rendered non-functional. Replacing it all constitutes an upgrade, and the policy specifically denies an upgrade. My initial estimate from a highly-regarded electronics service firm recommended replacement that was double the $20K cap on my electronics coverage. The carrier pretty much dismissed it out of hand. Everything must go through the surveyor. I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster whether she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel and crew on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her reply: ".....I have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and your policy does not cover fear of loss." I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the electronics. My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that I'm in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective, I'm not getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that. I'd welcome any input. -- Steve Sipe Solo 4303 "Maerin" Middle River, MD

R.

rcrogers6 .

Wed, Jun 19, 2013 11:13 PM

I had lightning damage to almost everything electrical. In almost every
case, the manufacturer refused to repair their units because their
experience was that the units fail within a year of repair anyway.
Interestingly, Raymarine, Icom, and Datamarine (one of two items) did
repair their equipment. The Raymarine repair to the autopilot controller
lasted. The Icom repairs to portable units did not last and they were not
real helpful afterwards.

I acted as project manager submitting my paperwork to the surveyor. He was
a former USCG vessel inspector in Alaska. I was allowed "new for old."
Different insurance company and probably a differently worded policy.

Raymarine/Raytheon has changed names and ownership several times, but I
would explore their repair policies because, as you point out, you would
have interface problems. I would talk with Raymarine directly and get every
item checked to include interface.

The folks at the insurance company are likely ignorant on the subject
matter and totally dependent upon the surveyor. Witness the stupid remark
about high-end gear being made to get wet! Siting in a console and getting
rain or spray - yes. Dipped in water - no. The surveyor's knowledge of
electronics is to be assessed by you.

Did you get your insurance through a broker? If so, seek their intercession
with the insurance company. The last piece of advice is easy. Get a
different insurance policy and/or company. If the broker does help, get rid
of them as well.

Thank you for pointing to a possible pitfall in marine insurance policies.

Ron Rogers

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Steve Sipe scs_maerin@maerin.net wrote:

I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some
direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be concise
as possible.

Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from
prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak
caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear was
all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently swamped
(no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all was
retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the console,
Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return however, in
the interim, the radar has stopped functioning.

A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted a
report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies "like
kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss from
theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it should be
replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end equipment and
intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and they'll make the call
based upon the findings. They won't replace any of the other gear since it
functions, despite the fact that if one piece is replaced with NEW, due to
incompatibility of current vs. discontinued gear, the remaining gear is
rendered non-functional. Replacing it all constitutes an upgrade, and the
policy specifically denies an upgrade. My initial estimate from a
highly-regarded electronics service firm recommended replacement that was
double the $20K cap on my electronics coverage. The carrier pretty much
dismissed it out of hand. Everything must go through the surveyor.

I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been
retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current
status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster whether
she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel and crew
on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her reply: ".....I
have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and your policy does not
cover fear of loss."

I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the
electronics.

My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that I'm
in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective, I'm not
getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that.

I'd welcome any input.

--
Steve Sipe
Solo 4303 "Maerin"
Middle River, MD

I had lightning damage to almost everything electrical. In almost every case, the manufacturer refused to repair their units because their experience was that the units fail within a year of repair anyway. Interestingly, Raymarine, Icom, and Datamarine (one of two items) did repair their equipment. The Raymarine repair to the autopilot controller lasted. The Icom repairs to portable units did not last and they were not real helpful afterwards. I acted as project manager submitting my paperwork to the surveyor. He was a former USCG vessel inspector in Alaska. I was allowed "new for old." Different insurance company and probably a differently worded policy. Raymarine/Raytheon has changed names and ownership several times, but I would explore their repair policies because, as you point out, you would have interface problems. I would talk with Raymarine directly and get every item checked to include interface. The folks at the insurance company are likely ignorant on the subject matter and totally dependent upon the surveyor. Witness the stupid remark about high-end gear being made to get wet! Siting in a console and getting rain or spray - yes. Dipped in water - no. The surveyor's knowledge of electronics is to be assessed by you. Did you get your insurance through a broker? If so, seek their intercession with the insurance company. The last piece of advice is easy. Get a different insurance policy and/or company. If the broker does help, get rid of them as well. Thank you for pointing to a possible pitfall in marine insurance policies. Ron Rogers On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Steve Sipe <scs_maerin@maerin.net> wrote: > I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some > direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be concise > as possible. > > Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from > prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak > caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear was > all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently swamped > (no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all was > retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the console, > Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return however, in > the interim, the radar has stopped functioning. > > A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted a > report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies "like > kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss from > theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it should be > replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end equipment and > intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and they'll make the call > based upon the findings. They won't replace any of the other gear since it > functions, despite the fact that if one piece is replaced with NEW, due to > incompatibility of current vs. discontinued gear, the remaining gear is > rendered non-functional. Replacing it all constitutes an upgrade, and the > policy specifically denies an upgrade. My initial estimate from a > highly-regarded electronics service firm recommended replacement that was > double the $20K cap on my electronics coverage. The carrier pretty much > dismissed it out of hand. Everything must go through the surveyor. > > I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been > retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current > status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster whether > she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel and crew > on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her reply: ".....I > have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and your policy does not > cover fear of loss." > > I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the > electronics. > > My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that I'm > in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective, I'm not > getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that. > > I'd welcome any input. > > -- > Steve Sipe > Solo 4303 "Maerin" > Middle River, MD

FB

Frank Burrows

Thu, Jun 20, 2013 12:25 AM

Steve:
I had an experience years ago with prop and shaft damage. The adjuster
wanted to replace only one prop since only one was damaged, I had heard
that they had changed the design and the only correct replacement would
be to replace them in a pair. I struck up a conversation with the
adjuster and we agreed that a certain prop shop was the best around.

I took the remaining prop to this shop and the owner wrote out a short
estimate for a pair of props with a note about the design change. The
adjuster accepted this as proof and paid for the pair.

My suggestion is to have a reliable shop open up the electronics and
inspect for water damage. I think you are going to have to prove that
there is damage before they will pay. If the shop can document that
water entered the guts then I think you will prevail.

You could also keep the claim open for a extended period to cover a
future failure.

Good luck

Frank Burrows

Steve: I had an experience years ago with prop and shaft damage. The adjuster wanted to replace only one prop since only one was damaged, I had heard that they had changed the design and the only correct replacement would be to replace them in a pair. I struck up a conversation with the adjuster and we agreed that a certain prop shop was the best around. I took the remaining prop to this shop and the owner wrote out a short estimate for a pair of props with a note about the design change. The adjuster accepted this as proof and paid for the pair. My suggestion is to have a reliable shop open up the electronics and inspect for water damage. I think you are going to have to prove that there is damage before they will pay. If the shop can document that water entered the guts then I think you will prevail. You could also keep the claim open for a extended period to cover a future failure. Good luck Frank Burrows

JW

Joel Wilkins

Thu, Jun 20, 2013 1:45 PM

I would love to hear Al Goldens comments on this....

As others have said, I would consult another surveyor...specifically for the electronics to document real damage to submerged, but working, components. In addition, I would research your own equipment manuals or sales brochures to see if ANYWHERE it says the equipment is waterproof. Water resistant sure, but water proof?? Ask your insurance company to provide documentation to show it is waterproof as well.

Like you, I have had a piece of Raymarine Nav gear get completely submerged, my fault so no insurance claim. It currently works but I fully expect to have to replace it before it's normal useful life and had it been like in your case, I would have expected like for like replacement.

Disclaimer, I work for Raytheon... but we sold that division many moons ago.
Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

I would love to hear Al Goldens comments on this.... As others have said, I would consult another surveyor...specifically for the electronics to document real damage to submerged, but working, components. In addition, I would research your own equipment manuals or sales brochures to see if ANYWHERE it says the equipment is waterproof. Water resistant sure, but water proof?? Ask your insurance company to provide documentation to show it is waterproof as well. Like you, I have had a piece of Raymarine Nav gear get completely submerged, my fault so no insurance claim. It currently works but I fully expect to have to replace it before it's normal useful life and had it been like in your case, I would have expected like for like replacement. Disclaimer, I work for Raytheon... but we sold that division many moons ago. Joel Wilkins m/s Miss Magoo Columbia 45 Treasure Island, FL

AG

Al Golden

Thu, Jun 20, 2013 3:56 PM

"I would love to hear Al Goldens comments on this...."

[Al Golden] Well it's a little difficult for me to comment on a former client's problem, both from diplomatic as well as factual perspectives.

I will say that the bane of my existence has been the nearly complete lack of seaworthy knowledge among both the underwriting as well as adjusting staffs in our industry. There are only a very few companies that maintain the knowledgeable staffing in those critical areas to operate efficiently.

There are also two distinct philosophies among insurers: One group finds every possible way that they can to avoid paying claims, and the other realizes that appropriate claim handling (or, in some cases, spectacular claim handling) is their best advertising.

The one thing that we advise our clients who run into problems with their claims is to hire their own surveyor, metallurgist, whatever, to report on the loss. They may just confirm what the company's surveyor reported, but they may have a completely divergent opinion.

I really don't have enough facts to even begin to comment on Steve's case, but I will offer to examine his policy form at no charge if he'd like.

Al Golden
International Marine Insurance Services
800-541-4647 - Ext 16

"I would love to hear Al Goldens comments on this...." [Al Golden] Well it's a little difficult for me to comment on a former client's problem, both from diplomatic as well as factual perspectives. I will say that the bane of my existence has been the nearly complete lack of seaworthy knowledge among both the underwriting as well as adjusting staffs in our industry. There are only a very few companies that maintain the knowledgeable staffing in those critical areas to operate efficiently. There are also two distinct philosophies among insurers: One group finds every possible way that they can to avoid paying claims, and the other realizes that appropriate claim handling (or, in some cases, spectacular claim handling) is their best advertising. The one thing that we advise our clients who run into problems with their claims is to hire their own surveyor, metallurgist, whatever, to report on the loss. They may just confirm what the company's surveyor reported, but they may have a completely divergent opinion. I really don't have enough facts to even begin to comment on Steve's case, but I will offer to examine his policy form at no charge if he'd like. Al Golden International Marine Insurance Services 800-541-4647 - Ext 16

WE

Wade Ehlen

Fri, Jun 21, 2013 8:39 PM

Steve:

Sorry about your loss. I would suggest that you hire your own surveyor, one who has extensive knowledge in electronics. Submit his report to the insurance adjuster.
Just another reminder that the insurance company is in business to make money, not pay off claims.

Wade Ehlen

--- On Wed, 6/19/13, Steve Sipe scs_maerin@maerin.net wrote:

From: Steve Sipe scs_maerin@maerin.net
Subject: T&T: Insurance claim
To: "Trawlers and Trawlering" trawlers@lists.trawlering.com
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 6:35 PM

I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be concise as possible.

Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear was all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently swamped (no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all was retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the console, Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return however, in the interim, the radar has stopped functioning.

A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted a report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies "like kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss from theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it should be replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end equipment and intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and they'll make the call based upon the findings. They won't replace any of the other gear since it functions, despite the fact that if one piece is replaced with NEW, due to incompatibility of current vs. discontinued gear, the remaining gear is rendered non-functional. Replacing it all constitutes an upgrade, and the policy specifically denies an upgrade. My initial estimate from a highly-regarded electronics service firm recommended replacement that was double the $20K cap on my electronics coverage. The carrier pretty much dismissed it out
of hand. Everything must go through the surveyor.

I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster whether she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel and crew on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her reply: ".....I have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and your policy does not cover fear of loss."

I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the electronics.

My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that I'm in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective, I'm not getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that.

I'd welcome any input.

-- Steve Sipe
Solo 4303 "Maerin"
Middle River, MD

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Steve: Sorry about your loss. I would suggest that you hire your own surveyor, one who has extensive knowledge in electronics. Submit his report to the insurance adjuster. Just another reminder that the insurance company is in business to make money, not pay off claims. Wade Ehlen --- On Wed, 6/19/13, Steve Sipe <scs_maerin@maerin.net> wrote: From: Steve Sipe <scs_maerin@maerin.net> Subject: T&T: Insurance claim To: "Trawlers and Trawlering" <trawlers@lists.trawlering.com> Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 6:35 PM I'm appealing to the collective experience of the list to find some direction in resolving an insurance claim issue. I'll attempt to be concise as possible. Maerin was broken into Mar. 10. Cosmetic damage, console damage from prying out my RL80C and RN300, dinghy damage, cosmetic damage to teak caprail finish, damage to wiring in removal of TV's, the removed gear was all put in a canvas bag & thrown into the dinghy which subsequently swamped (no plug) and most stuff was wet.The perps were interrupted, all was retrieved. Only 2 pieces of electronic gear were broken out of the console, Raymarine RN300 and RL80C. Both functioned upon their return however, in the interim, the radar has stopped functioning. A surveyor visited the boat within a week of the incident and submitted a report to the carrier, I did not receive a copy. My policy specifies "like kind and quality", and contains few other specifics regarding loss from theft. I maintain that since the gear was removed and swamped, it should be replaced, the carrier says it works, and it's "high-end equipment and intended to get wet". I'm to have the radar DX'ed and they'll make the call based upon the findings. They won't replace any of the other gear since it functions, despite the fact that if one piece is replaced with NEW, due to incompatibility of current vs. discontinued gear, the remaining gear is rendered non-functional. Replacing it all constitutes an upgrade, and the policy specifically denies an upgrade. My initial estimate from a highly-regarded electronics service firm recommended replacement that was double the $20K cap on my electronics coverage. The carrier pretty much dismissed it out of hand. Everything must go through the surveyor. I fully expected this outcome upon learning that the gear had been retrieved, and all the hindsight in the world can't change the current status. Woulda', shoulda', coulda...... I proposed to the adjuster whether she would be comfortable at sea staking the safety of her vessel and crew on damaged/repaired/questionable navigation equipment... her reply: ".....I have to adjust the claim as the policy is written, and your policy does not cover fear of loss." I'm getting very little resistance on any repairs other than the electronics. My dilemma is how to pursue the electronics, given the gray area that I'm in with damaged but semi-functional equipment. From my perspective, I'm not getting a fair shake, and I'm not sure I can do much to alter that. I'd welcome any input. -- Steve Sipe Solo 4303 "Maerin" Middle River, MD _______________________________________________ http://lists.trawlering.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers_lists.trawlering.com To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.trawlering.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers_lists.trawlering.com Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.