Empathy List Archives

HM

Hal Murray

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 8:17 AM

I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the
intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need
so much power that it's getting hot?

Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on
their Radio clock page and says 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
and that has a link to:
https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100
0.htm
which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max"

10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with
with your expectations calibrated on modern technology.

A couple of differences:
CMOS technology
LCD vs LED
WWVB vs WWV
Switching power supplies

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the
years.

Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

> I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the > intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need > so much power that it's getting hot? Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on their Radio clock page and says 1983. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock and that has a link to: https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100 0.htm which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max" 10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot. Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with with your expectations calibrated on modern technology. A couple of differences: CMOS technology LCD vs LED WWVB vs WWV Switching power supplies It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the years. Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam.

EE

Erik E. Fair

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 3:14 PM

Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 01:17:34 -0700
From: Hal Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the years.

I don't have such a plot, but a proxy for it would be a look at Citizen & Casio solar-powered quartz watches reserve power specifications: many of them have a "sleep" or "power save" mode which greatly reduces power consumption, and extends the rechargeable battery charge lifetime considerably: high numbers of months, low numbers of years. When exposed to light once more, they "wake up" and display current time (modulo drift, but there are radio controlled models which deal with that too, both terrestrial (e.g., WWVB, DCF77, JJY) & GNSS).

Fundamentally, what they do is turn off the display when the watch is not in use. Their most common model of "watch not in use" is being in the dark long enough, which they can determine because they're clocks with a light sensor (e.g., Citizen F150 solar GPS watch movement - in "power save" mode from full battery charge, the manual claims this movement will keep time for up to 7 years with +/- 5 second per month maximum drift without time signal sync).

Some models also have accelerometers, so if they're still and in the dark long enough, they go to sleep. The accelerometer allows them to wake up even in the dark (e.g., Casio GWM-5610 solar powered, radio-controlled LCD digital watch).

For the analog display models: sleep mode means the stepper motors which drive watch hands are run less often (e.g., stop the second hand entirely, only move minute/hour hands every 60 seconds), or stop the display entirely.

For the digital LCD models: turn off the LCD. The ana-digi combination models do some combination of both.

In all examples I've seen, these watches continue to run their oscillators to keep time (the watchmakers are very proud of this - it's prominently mentioned in the manuals), and the terrestrial radio controlled models continue to attempt reception of time signal every night (typically between midnight & 4am, when reception of such signals is likely to be best).

Technology development in this area continues: Casio has begun shipping watch models with memory in pixel (MIP) displays - much lower power consumption for static display, accomplished by having one SRAM bit per LCD pixel integrated into the display.

https://casiofanmag.com/g-shock/mip-lcd/

https://www.mouser.com/new/kyocera-display/kyocera-mip-display-modules/

just FYI,

Erik

Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 01:17:34 -0700 From: Hal Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the years. I don't have such a plot, but a proxy for it would be a look at Citizen & Casio solar-powered quartz watches reserve power specifications: many of them have a "sleep" or "power save" mode which greatly reduces power consumption, and extends the rechargeable battery charge lifetime considerably: high numbers of months, low numbers of years. When exposed to light once more, they "wake up" and display current time (modulo drift, but there are radio controlled models which deal with that too, both terrestrial (e.g., WWVB, DCF77, JJY) & GNSS). Fundamentally, what they do is turn off the display when the watch is not in use. Their most common model of "watch not in use" is being in the dark long enough, which they can determine because they're clocks with a light sensor (e.g., Citizen F150 solar GPS watch movement - in "power save" mode from full battery charge, the manual claims this movement will keep time for up to 7 years with +/- 5 second per month maximum drift without time signal sync). Some models also have accelerometers, so if they're still and in the dark long enough, they go to sleep. The accelerometer allows them to wake up even in the dark (e.g., Casio GWM-5610 solar powered, radio-controlled LCD digital watch). For the analog display models: sleep mode means the stepper motors which drive watch hands are run less often (e.g., stop the second hand entirely, only move minute/hour hands every 60 seconds), or stop the display entirely. For the digital LCD models: turn off the LCD. The ana-digi combination models do some combination of both. In all examples I've seen, these watches continue to run their oscillators to keep time (the watchmakers are very proud of this - it's prominently mentioned in the manuals), and the terrestrial radio controlled models continue to attempt reception of time signal every night (typically between midnight & 4am, when reception of such signals is likely to be best). Technology development in this area continues: Casio has begun shipping watch models with memory in pixel (MIP) displays - much lower power consumption for static display, accomplished by having one SRAM bit per LCD pixel integrated into the display. https://casiofanmag.com/g-shock/mip-lcd/ https://www.mouser.com/new/kyocera-display/kyocera-mip-display-modules/ just FYI, Erik

BK

Bob kb8tq

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 4:28 PM

Hi

On Aug 8, 2022, at 12:17 AM, Hal Murray via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the
intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need
so much power that it's getting hot?

Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on
their Radio clock page and says 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
and that has a link to:
https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100
0.htm
which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max"

10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with
with your expectations calibrated on modern technology.

A couple of differences:
CMOS technology
LCD vs LED
WWVB vs WWV
Switching power supplies

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the
years.

The low power CMOS process turns out to be pretty old. Indeed it is not a
common thing to see used today or even back a while. They certainly have
improved it over the years, but it was already good when watches first came
out. 32 KHz is low enough that leakage gets you as you shrink things. It goes
as fast / almost as fast / faster than the improvement in speed / power helps you.

Another thing that “helps” is that very little of the IC is running at the “fast”
32 KHz frequency. The oscillator and first divider stages are pretty much
all there is. Past that it just gets slower and slower as you go down the divider.

Analog watch modules ( so a 32 KHz crystal driving a stepper that moved
hands) could run for a year on the coin cell battery in the watch back in the
1970’s. The LCD versions …. not so much.

Making the comparison a based on “how long will it run” a bit problematic
is that we transitioned from mercury batteries to lithiums ( and then to better
lithiums ) along the way.

Bob

Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi > On Aug 8, 2022, at 12:17 AM, Hal Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > >> I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the >> intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need >> so much power that it's getting hot? > > Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on > their Radio clock page and says 1983. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock > and that has a link to: > https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100 > 0.htm > which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max" > > 10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot. > > Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with > with your expectations calibrated on modern technology. > > A couple of differences: > CMOS technology > LCD vs LED > WWVB vs WWV > Switching power supplies > > It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the > years. The low power CMOS process turns out to be pretty old. Indeed it is not a common thing to see used today or even back a while. They certainly have improved it over the years, but it was already good when watches first came out. 32 KHz is low enough that leakage gets you as you shrink things. It goes as fast / almost as fast / faster than the improvement in speed / power helps you. Another thing that “helps” is that very little of the IC is running at the “fast” 32 KHz frequency. The oscillator and first divider stages are pretty much all there is. Past that it just gets slower and slower as you go down the divider. Analog watch modules ( so a 32 KHz crystal driving a stepper that moved hands) could run for a year on the coin cell battery in the watch back in the 1970’s. The LCD versions …. not so much. Making the comparison a based on “how long will it run” a bit problematic is that we transitioned from mercury batteries to lithiums ( and then to better lithiums ) along the way. Bob > > Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time. > > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

BC

Brooke Clarke

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 6:54 PM

Hi:

I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that dissipates the difference between it's input and
output. I don't see it as a problem.
https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the
intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need
so much power that it's getting hot?

Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on
their Radio clock page and says 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
and that has a link to:
https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100
0.htm
which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max"

10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with
with your expectations calibrated on modern technology.

A couple of differences:
CMOS technology
LCD vs LED
WWVB vs WWV
Switching power supplies

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the
years.

Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time.

Hi: I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that dissipates the difference between it's input and output. I don't see it as a problem. https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. -------- Original Message -------- >> I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, and the >> intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it need >> so much power that it's getting hot? > Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is mentioned on > their Radio clock page and says 1983. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock > and that has a link to: > https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100 > 0.htm > which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max" > > 10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot. > > Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old technology with > with your expectations calibrated on modern technology. > > A couple of differences: > CMOS technology > LCD vs LED > WWVB vs WWV > Switching power supplies > > It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the > years. > > Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time. > > >

AG

Adrian Godwin

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 10:26 PM

Fran Blanche goes through the regulator circuit in detail and shows it's
having to deal with too large a voltage drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3yxSz4aNbE&t=323s

In a later video she removes the switching regulator a previous owner has
fitted, because it's generating interference that stops the clock receiving
the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3UaHxhnac&t=385s

On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 8:28 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Hi:

I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that
dissipates the difference between it's input and
output. I don't see it as a problem.
https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by
how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator,

and the

intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it

need

so much power that it's getting hot?

Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is

mentioned on

their Radio clock page and says 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
and that has a link to:

https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100

0.htm
which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max"

10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old

technology with

with your expectations calibrated on modern technology.

A couple of differences:
CMOS technology
LCD vs LED
WWVB vs WWV
Switching power supplies

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the
years.

Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Fran Blanche goes through the regulator circuit in detail and shows it's having to deal with too large a voltage drop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3yxSz4aNbE&t=323s In a later video she removes the switching regulator a previous owner has fitted, because it's generating interference that stops the clock receiving the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3UaHxhnac&t=385s On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 8:28 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi: > > I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that > dissipates the difference between it's input and > output. I don't see it as a problem. > https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml > > -- > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > https://www.PRC68.com > axioms: > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by > how well you understand how it works. > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. > > -------- Original Message -------- > >> I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, > and the > >> intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it > need > >> so much power that it's getting hot? > > Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is > mentioned on > > their Radio clock page and says 1983. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock > > and that has a link to: > > > https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100 > > 0.htm > > which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max" > > > > 10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot. > > > > Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old > technology with > > with your expectations calibrated on modern technology. > > > > A couple of differences: > > CMOS technology > > LCD vs LED > > WWVB vs WWV > > Switching power supplies > > > > It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the > > years. > > > > Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

BC

Brooke Clarke

Mon, Aug 8, 2022 11:38 PM

Hi Adrian:

On the first video you may notice my comment at the top. 13.8 VDC is what you expect to get when the external back up 12
Volt battery is connected. So a "fix" that lowers the voltage will not be correct when the backup battery is used.
Also my comment on the second video is at the top.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

Fran Blanche goes through the regulator circuit in detail and shows it's
having to deal with too large a voltage drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3yxSz4aNbE&t=323s

In a later video she removes the switching regulator a previous owner has
fitted, because it's generating interference that stops the clock receiving
the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3UaHxhnac&t=385s

On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 8:28 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Hi:

I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that
dissipates the difference between it's input and
output. I don't see it as a problem.
https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by
how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator,

and the

intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it

need

so much power that it's getting hot?

Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is

mentioned on

their Radio clock page and says 1983.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock
and that has a link to:

https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100

0.htm
which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max"

10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old

technology with

with your expectations calibrated on modern technology.

A couple of differences:
CMOS technology
LCD vs LED
WWVB vs WWV
Switching power supplies

It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the
years.

Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi Adrian: On the first video you may notice my comment at the top. 13.8 VDC is what you expect to get when the external back up 12 Volt battery is connected. So a "fix" that lowers the voltage will not be correct when the backup battery is used. Also my comment on the second video is at the top. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. -------- Original Message -------- > Fran Blanche goes through the regulator circuit in detail and shows it's > having to deal with too large a voltage drop. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3yxSz4aNbE&t=323s > > In a later video she removes the switching regulator a previous owner has > fitted, because it's generating interference that stops the clock receiving > the time. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3UaHxhnac&t=385s > > > > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 8:28 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> I think it is simply that the voltage regulator is a linear type that >> dissipates the difference between it's input and >> output. I don't see it as a problem. >> https://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml >> >> -- >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> https://www.PRC68.com >> axioms: >> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by >> how well you understand how it works. >> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> I've seen numerous reports of the flawed power supply and regulator, >> and the >>>> intense heat it generates in the chassis, and I'm stumped. Why does it >> need >>>> so much power that it's getting hot? >>> Wikipedia doesn't have a page on the Heathkit GC-1000, but it is >> mentioned on >>> their Radio clock page and says 1983. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock >>> and that has a link to: >>> >> https://www.pestingers.net/pages-images/heathkit/radio-equipment/gc1000/gc100 >>> 0.htm >>> which has a set of pictures, one shows "13w max" >>> >>> 10 watts in a plastic box. I'm not surprised it gets hot. >>> >>> Why does it need so much power? You are comparing 40 year old >> technology with >>> with your expectations calibrated on modern technology. >>> >>> A couple of differences: >>> CMOS technology >>> LCD vs LED >>> WWVB vs WWV >>> Switching power supplies >>> >>> It would be fun to see a plot of the power needed to run a watch over the >>> years. >>> >>> Initial GPS receivers were $250K. They came out about the same time. >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com >

JD

Joe Duarte

Tue, Aug 9, 2022 3:18 AM

The low power CMOS process turns out to be pretty old. Indeed it is not a
common thing to see used today or even back a while.

I don't follow. Are you saying that CMOS is obsolete and was succeeded by
something else? What's the connection to the Heathkit? It didn't have CMOS
chips as far as I know.

Analog watch modules ( so a 32 KHz crystal driving a stepper that moved
hands) could run for a year on the coin cell battery in the watch back in
the
1970’s. The LCD versions …. not so much.

You mean LCD watches used more power than analog? I thought LCDs were
sippers compared to LEDs. The LCD watches I know from the 1980s had 2-year
battery lives, just like today's, e.g. the Seiko "Arnie" divers, original
Casio G-Shocks, etc. (Well, the Arnie was both analog and digital, and some
of today's digital LCD watches promise more than two years battery life,
some up to ten years.) The 1970s LCD watch that had battery life issues
was the extreme accuracy Citizen Crystron – it had a super fast oscillator,
at least a few hundred KHz, maybe temperature compensation too. I think it
was better than 1 sec/month stable, but the battery lasted six months.

You said "Propagation is a biggie with WWVB." I figured less than 4 ms prop
from Fort Collins to Tucson, AZ, maybe 8 ms to the San Francisco Bay Area.
That's pretty lean to me, and you can just program in the correction – I
thought it was the shortwave WWV signals that had propagation hassles. WWVB
is ground wave at 60 KHz, not the bouncy-bounce of shortwave. The other
latencies measured by Lombardi in his NIST paper seemed to trump prop delay.

On the GC-1000 power issues, I'm not sure it's explained simply by the era.
It seems like the engineers lacked discipline. In 1983, we were, what, a
decade away from the first WWVB syncing watches? The watches likely used
CMOS IC, but they still had to do all the work of those beefy desktop
receivers. Anything you could do with a trickle from a coin cell battery in
1993 you could easily do with a couple of AAs in 1983. The only difference
is the LED display vs a watch's LCD or analog movement. And WWV shortwave
vs WWVB long wave – I still don't understand why Healthkit chose WWV. I'll
probably settle on a modern WWVB receiver, but it would be interesting to
build something from scratch. I've never tried programming an FPGA before.

I've also thought about using it to robotically sync watches that don't
have radio syncing built-in. I wonder how precise I could get with an
exogenous solenoid or linear actuator run by a WWVB receiver clock, where
it hits the reset buttons on a digital watch (setting the seconds to zero),
or pulls out and presses in the crown of an analog watch (pull it to stop
the second hand exactly at 60/0, press it in to start at exactly the true
start of the minute). I wonder if analog watches have sub-second awareness,
meaning can they be stopped at a partial second or is it always a discrete
second, do they restart at that increment, and whether it's different for
quartz vs. mechanical chronometers, etc. It would be a fun way to learn
about solenoids and electromechanics. At first I was thinking about needing
extremely fast solenoids or actuators, but what I really need is extreme
consistency of elapsed time to press the button 2-3 mm or whatever.

Cheers,

Joe

> > > The low power CMOS process turns out to be pretty old. Indeed it is not a > common thing to see used today or even back a while. I don't follow. Are you saying that CMOS is obsolete and was succeeded by something else? What's the connection to the Heathkit? It didn't have CMOS chips as far as I know. > Analog watch modules ( so a 32 KHz crystal driving a stepper that moved > hands) could run for a year on the coin cell battery in the watch back in > the > 1970’s. The LCD versions …. not so much. You mean LCD watches used *more* power than analog? I thought LCDs were sippers compared to LEDs. The LCD watches I know from the 1980s had 2-year battery lives, just like today's, e.g. the Seiko "Arnie" divers, original Casio G-Shocks, etc. (Well, the Arnie was both analog and digital, and some of today's digital LCD watches promise more than two years battery life, some up to *ten* years.) The 1970s LCD watch that had battery life issues was the extreme accuracy Citizen Crystron – it had a super fast oscillator, at least a few hundred KHz, maybe temperature compensation too. I think it was better than 1 sec/month stable, but the battery lasted six months. You said "Propagation is a biggie with WWVB." I figured less than 4 ms prop from Fort Collins to Tucson, AZ, maybe 8 ms to the San Francisco Bay Area. That's pretty lean to me, and you can just program in the correction – I thought it was the shortwave WWV signals that had propagation hassles. WWVB is ground wave at 60 KHz, not the bouncy-bounce of shortwave. The other latencies measured by Lombardi in his NIST paper seemed to trump prop delay. On the GC-1000 power issues, I'm not sure it's explained simply by the era. It seems like the engineers lacked discipline. In 1983, we were, what, a decade away from the first WWVB syncing watches? The watches likely used CMOS IC, but they still had to do all the work of those beefy desktop receivers. Anything you could do with a trickle from a coin cell battery in 1993 you could easily do with a couple of AAs in 1983. The only difference is the LED display vs a watch's LCD or analog movement. And WWV shortwave vs WWVB long wave – I still don't understand why Healthkit chose WWV. I'll probably settle on a modern WWVB receiver, but it would be interesting to build something from scratch. I've never tried programming an FPGA before. I've also thought about using it to robotically sync watches that don't have radio syncing built-in. I wonder how precise I could get with an exogenous solenoid or linear actuator run by a WWVB receiver clock, where it hits the reset buttons on a digital watch (setting the seconds to zero), or pulls out and presses in the crown of an analog watch (pull it to stop the second hand exactly at 60/0, press it in to start at exactly the true start of the minute). I wonder if analog watches have sub-second awareness, meaning can they be stopped at a partial second or is it always a discrete second, do they restart at that increment, and whether it's different for quartz vs. mechanical chronometers, etc. It would be a fun way to learn about solenoids and electromechanics. At first I was thinking about needing extremely fast solenoids or actuators, but what I really need is extreme *consistency* of elapsed time to press the button 2-3 mm or whatever. Cheers, Joe

AG

Adrian Godwin

Tue, Aug 9, 2022 2:34 PM

On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 3:25 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Hi Adrian:

On the first video you may notice my comment at the top. 13.8 VDC is what
you expect to get when the external back up 12
Volt battery is connected. So a "fix" that lowers the voltage will not be
correct when the backup battery is used.
Also my comment on the second video is at the top.

Good point. The switching regulator would get around that (though Fran's
solution of a proper heatsink works well enough) .
I'm not sure which module was used - was it one of the Power Designs
modules ?

On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 3:25 PM Brooke Clarke via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi Adrian: > > On the first video you may notice my comment at the top. 13.8 VDC is what > you expect to get when the external back up 12 > Volt battery is connected. So a "fix" that lowers the voltage will not be > correct when the backup battery is used. > Also my comment on the second video is at the top. > > Good point. The switching regulator would get around that (though Fran's solution of a proper heatsink works well enough) . I'm not sure which module was used - was it one of the Power Designs modules ?

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

Re: Power and heat re: Heathkit WWV clock / where are the good oscillators?