Empathy List Archives

PM

Phillip Morton

Mon, Mar 9, 2020 7:19 PM

Running into an issue with a council member possibly wanting the audio
recordings of city council meetings that the city clerk uses to verify and
draft her formal minutes. City clerk has informed me that she read
somewhere a couple of years ago that it was okay to destroy the tools and
documents used for creating the official minutes and that it is in fact
probably a good idea.

To be clear, nothing has been destroyed, but I think you all probably see
where she is going with this. Obviously there are time frames for how long
a city must hold on to contracts, etc. But as far as audio recordings of
the meeting created by the city clerk, is there something I'm missing? I
would assume the city clerks audio recordings cannot be destroyed right
after the formal minutes are drafted.

Running into an issue with a council member possibly wanting the audio recordings of city council meetings that the city clerk uses to verify and draft her formal minutes. City clerk has informed me that she read somewhere a couple of years ago that it was okay to destroy the tools and documents used for creating the official minutes and that it is in fact probably a good idea. To be clear, nothing has been destroyed, but I think you all probably see where she is going with this. Obviously there are time frames for how long a city must hold on to contracts, etc. But as far as audio recordings of the meeting created by the city clerk, is there something I'm missing? I would assume the city clerks audio recordings cannot be destroyed right after the formal minutes are drafted.

MP

Mark Pordos

Mon, Mar 9, 2020 9:54 PM

At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda?

Thanks.

Mark

Mark Pordos, Attorney

The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC

A Professional Limited Liability Company

814 Manvel Avenue

Chandler, OK 74834

Tel: 405/258-5301

Fax: 405/258-5302

e-mail: mailto:dlstoy@andrewsdavis.com pordos@att.net

At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda? Thanks. Mark Mark Pordos, Attorney The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC A Professional Limited Liability Company 814 Manvel Avenue Chandler, OK 74834 Tel: 405/258-5301 Fax: 405/258-5302 e-mail: <mailto:dlstoy@andrewsdavis.com> pordos@att.net

JM

Jon Miller

Mon, Mar 9, 2020 9:56 PM

Yes

Jonathan E. Miller
City Attorney
City of Mustang
P.O. Box 850854
Yukon, Oklahoma 73085
Telephone: (405) 938-9108

This message is sent by a lawyer and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. This e-mail is intended for the addressee(s) only, and may not be distributed to any other person without written consent of the sender.

From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Mark Pordos
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:55 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Motion to Table

At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda?

Thanks.

Mark

Mark Pordos, Attorney
The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC
A Professional Limited Liability Company
814 Manvel Avenue
Chandler, OK 74834
Tel: 405/258-5301
Fax: 405/258-5302
e-mail: pordos@att.net mailto:dlstoy@andrewsdavis.com

Yes Jonathan E. Miller City Attorney City of Mustang P.O. Box 850854 Yukon, Oklahoma 73085 Telephone: (405) 938-9108 ********************************************************************************************* This message is sent by a lawyer and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. This e-mail is intended for the addressee(s) only, and may not be distributed to any other person without written consent of the sender. From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Mark Pordos Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:55 PM To: oama@lists.imla.org Subject: [Oama] Motion to Table At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda? Thanks. Mark Mark Pordos, Attorney The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC A Professional Limited Liability Company 814 Manvel Avenue Chandler, OK 74834 Tel: 405/258-5301 Fax: 405/258-5302 e-mail: pordos@att.net<mailto:dlstoy@andrewsdavis.com>

MR

Michael R. Vanderburg

Tue, Mar 10, 2020 6:58 PM

“Must” it be placed on the next agenda, NO.

Under general parliamentary procedure, you can table indefinitely under which you have to vote to pull it from the table and restore it to a business item. Or you can table definitely under which it comes up automatically at the designated time. Tabling indefinitely creates problems under the Oklahoma Open Meetings act, unless staff anticipates when the governing board wants the item brought back to their business meeting. “Tableing definitely” at least lets the staff know the timing of the return, but still requires OMA compliance to be effective.

For all practical purposes, the governing board will develop a preferred practice over time which is likely to be that tabling indefinitely will kill the issue unless and until the City Manager or comparable person unilaterally places the item on a future agenda.

Mike Vanderburg

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jon Miller
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:57 PM
To: Mark Pordos; oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Motion to Table

Yes

Jonathan E. Miller
City Attorney
City of Mustang
P.O. Box 850854
Yukon, Oklahoma 73085
Telephone: (405) 938-9108

This message is sent by a lawyer and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. This e-mail is intended for the addressee(s) only, and may not be distributed to any other person without written consent of the sender.

From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Mark Pordos
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:55 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Motion to Table

At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda?

Thanks.

Mark

Mark Pordos, Attorney
The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC
A Professional Limited Liability Company
814 Manvel Avenue
Chandler, OK 74834
Tel: 405/258-5301
Fax: 405/258-5302
e-mail: pordos@att.net

“Must” it be placed on the next agenda, NO. Under general parliamentary procedure, you can table indefinitely under which you have to vote to pull it from the table and restore it to a business item. Or you can table definitely under which it comes up automatically at the designated time. Tabling indefinitely creates problems under the Oklahoma Open Meetings act, unless staff anticipates when the governing board wants the item brought back to their business meeting. “Tableing definitely” at least lets the staff know the timing of the return, but still requires OMA compliance to be effective. For all practical purposes, the governing board will develop a preferred practice over time which is likely to be that tabling indefinitely will kill the issue unless and until the City Manager or comparable person unilaterally places the item on a future agenda. Mike Vanderburg Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Jon Miller Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:57 PM To: Mark Pordos; oama@lists.imla.org Subject: Re: [Oama] Motion to Table Yes Jonathan E. Miller City Attorney City of Mustang P.O. Box 850854 Yukon, Oklahoma 73085 Telephone: (405) 938-9108 ********************************************************************************************* This message is sent by a lawyer and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. This e-mail is intended for the addressee(s) only, and may not be distributed to any other person without written consent of the sender. From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Mark Pordos Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 4:55 PM To: oama@lists.imla.org Subject: [Oama] Motion to Table At a regular Board meeting, if an agenda item is “tabled”, i.e. there is a motion to table and a second and approval by majority, but nothing is said about when it is to be brought back up (taken off the table) and the regular meeting ends, must that same item be put on the next regular meeting agenda? Thanks. Mark Mark Pordos, Attorney The Law Office of Mark J. Pordos, PLLC A Professional Limited Liability Company 814 Manvel Avenue Chandler, OK 74834 Tel: 405/258-5301 Fax: 405/258-5302 e-mail: pordos@att.net

MR

Michael R. Vanderburg

Wed, Mar 11, 2020 2:28 AM

You obviously have a political issues and not necessarily a legal issue. Deliberately provoking a Councilor is always a risk. (granted, a risk you sometimes have to take, but a risk none the less.)

The legal issue is in two parts. 1) the audio and video recording mentioned in the ORA that are typically dealt with by municipalities have to do with police dash cams and body cams. I am unaware of anything else that the ORA expects you to have of this nature. Therefore, presumably, those recordings of the meetings do not legally have to be kept for a specific period of time. If the statutory law is silent, you keep a record for as long as it is needed for administrative purposes.

What the clerk seems to be referencing is section 24A.9 as to personal notes and personally created materials. Note that they are confidential only until formal action is taken (approval of the minutes). After that, and if they still exist, they recordings are public. Is the clerk claiming that these recordings are her personal creation, or does the Clerk acknowledge that the recordings are public documents?

In any event, I am unaware of any statute that requires such recordings be kept for any specific period of time. Whether this is a good idea or a bad idea, I leave up to the reader.

Mike Vanderburg

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Phillip Morton
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 2:20 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Audio recordings and ORA

Running into an issue with a council member possibly wanting the audio recordings of city council meetings that the city clerk uses to verify and draft her formal minutes. City clerk has informed me that she read somewhere a couple of years ago that it was okay to destroy the tools and documents used for creating the official minutes and that it is in fact probably a good idea.

To be clear, nothing has been destroyed, but I think you all probably see where she is going with this. Obviously there are time frames for how long a city must hold on to contracts, etc. But as far as audio recordings of the meeting created by the city clerk, is there something I'm missing? I would assume the city clerks audio recordings cannot be destroyed right after the formal minutes are drafted.

You obviously have a political issues and not necessarily a legal issue. Deliberately provoking a Councilor is always a risk. (granted, a risk you sometimes have to take, but a risk none the less.) The legal issue is in two parts. 1) the audio and video recording mentioned in the ORA that are typically dealt with by municipalities have to do with police dash cams and body cams. I am unaware of anything else that the ORA expects you to have of this nature. Therefore, presumably, those recordings of the meetings do not legally have to be kept for a specific period of time. If the statutory law is silent, you keep a record for as long as it is needed for administrative purposes. What the clerk seems to be referencing is section 24A.9 as to personal notes and personally created materials. Note that they are confidential only until formal action is taken (approval of the minutes). After that, and if they still exist, they recordings are public. Is the clerk claiming that these recordings are her personal creation, or does the Clerk acknowledge that the recordings are public documents? In any event, I am unaware of any statute that requires such recordings be kept for any specific period of time. Whether this is a good idea or a bad idea, I leave up to the reader. Mike Vanderburg Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Phillip Morton Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 2:20 PM To: oama@lists.imla.org Subject: [Oama] Audio recordings and ORA Running into an issue with a council member possibly wanting the audio recordings of city council meetings that the city clerk uses to verify and draft her formal minutes. City clerk has informed me that she read somewhere a couple of years ago that it was okay to destroy the tools and documents used for creating the official minutes and that it is in fact probably a good idea. To be clear, nothing has been destroyed, but I think you all probably see where she is going with this. Obviously there are time frames for how long a city must hold on to contracts, etc. But as far as audio recordings of the meeting created by the city clerk, is there something I'm missing? I would assume the city clerks audio recordings cannot be destroyed right after the formal minutes are drafted.