Re: [PCW] Carbon monoxide -- explosion risk
Bob,
I agree with your concern (below) about the explosion risk of gasoline-fueled motors. But there is a BIG difference between gas outboards vs. gas inboard engines in terms of potential risk. An insurance-broker acquaintance of mine tells me there's often a higher premium charged for boats with inboard gas engines (vs. inboard diesel engines). But he is not aware of any insurance-rate difference between the use of gas outboards vs. diesel outboards on boats. Again, gas outboards are used on perhaps 8 or 9 of every 10 boats in the U.S. Yet they're seldom involved in boat explosions. As we know, it's the accumulation of gasoline fumes WITHIN the hull of a boat (more likely with an inboard engine than an outboard motor) that usually results in an explosion. (But yes, the tank and fuel line for outboards should receive regular inspection.)
Rod Gibbons
founder: Cruising Cats USA
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:57:07 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
I have to think that the explosive threat of gasoline overwhelms any risks of CO poisoning, but I don't have any statistics to back that statement up.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
Rod,
Understood and concur. An outboard certainly reduces the risk of explosion
and the risk of CO poisoning. But if an inboard gas generator is installed
in the outboard-powered boat, then we're back to high explosion and CO
risks. And I suspect that between the two, the threat of explosion is
considerably higher, though of course it won't much matter to me which one
kills me - the results are the same.
On the Coastal Cat ideally there'd be an on-deck, properly vented &
exhausted locker that could accommodate one of the newer inverter-type
portable generators like Honda makes. Light weight, reasonably quiet if
it's inside a locker, and it can pull out of the boat's onboard fuel supply.
Gets fumes and fire risk out of the hull of the boat. Also costs a fraction
of an installed diesel genset and is easy to maintain/replace.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
Robert Deering wrote:
On the Coastal Cat ideally there'd be an on-deck, properly vented &
exhausted locker that could accommodate one of the newer inverter-type
portable generators like Honda makes. Light weight, reasonably quiet if
it's inside a locker, and it can pull out of the boat's onboard fuel supply.
Gets fumes and fire risk out of the hull of the boat. Also costs a fraction
of an installed diesel genset and is easy to maintain/replace.
Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with Honda generators?
http://www.honda.ca/PowerEng/Generators/InverterandCycloconverter/EU1000iC.htm
I'm close to buying one for my outboard-powered TomCat, to provide an
alternate source of power on board and to enable me to charge
depleted batteries when not connected to land.
--Georgs
Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com
I do Georgs. I used a 2 KW version on my previous boat (actually I usually
transported it to shore to power small chest freezers when on fishing
trips), and it is being designed into my soon-to-be-completed new powercat.
It's a great machine. Very quiet. Trouble-free after three years of use.
Even though my new boat has diesel power, I opted for the Honda. Several
reasons:
-
Cost - a diesel genset is not cheap, and the cost of installing it with
exhaust and water supply only added to it. Besides, I already own the
Honda. -
Access - my Honda will be in an ondeck locker that's properly vented. I
can easily get to it for inspection & maintenance. Air-cooled, it's very
simple. -
Fuel - while it would seem to be a no-brainer that I'd go with diesel
since my boat is diesel, I will also have a gas supply onboard for the
tender. That gas will be stored in a nearby vented locker, to providing
fuel safely to the genset is simple. -
Usage - I don't live in Florida, and I don't have to run AC...we don't
even know what 'AC' stands for up here. If I did I might choose
differently. I'll have onboard freezing capacity (this boat will be a
fishing as well as cruising machine) and that is typically the only time I
see running the genset for any period of time. For general electrical
generation I've installed upgraded high-output alternators and a large house
battery bank. -
Integration - I'm going with a Victron Inverter/charger. Victron has
designed some of their systems to mate with Honda inverter generators.
Don't need to go into details here, but it's a slick combination. -
Weight - the Honda weighs around 60 lbs. A diesel generator is well
into the hundreds. Every pound of weight exacts a fuel penalty, typically
more-so on cats. -
Flexibility - I can easily change this out when my needs or the
technology changes. Heck, ten years ago these inverter gens were just
somebody's idea. Who knows? In five years there might be fuel cell gensets
that emit zero noise and water vapor (probably made by Honda). If I had a
big investment in a fixed, inboard generator I would be more resistant to
change.
Check back with me in a year or two. Maybe I'll have changed my tune. But
for my application the Honda looks about right.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
I've used a Honda EV 3000 on a Lagoon to run the air conditioning. We set it on the port sugar scoop and plug it into the shore power. Works great, only issue is that it uses gas. It is quiet, thrifty, and easy for two guys to handle. I don't like gas on a boat, but with proper precaution, not a problem. The EV 2000 is easier to handle, but not big enough to handle air conditioning.
-----Original Message-----
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs georgs@powercatamaranworld.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 9:53 am
Subject: [PCW] Honda generators, was Carbon monoxide -- explosion risk
Robert Deering wrote:
On the Coastal Cat ideally there'd be an on-deck, properly vented &
exhausted locker that could accommodate one of the newer inverter-type
portable generators like Honda makes. Light weight, reasonably quiet if
it's inside a locker, and it can pull out of the boat's onboard fuel supply.
Gets fumes and fire risk out of the hull of the boat. Also costs a fraction
of an installed diesel genset and is easy to maintain/replace.
Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with Honda generators?
http://www.honda.ca/PowerEng/Generators/InverterandCycloconverter/EU1000iC.htm
I'm close to buying one for my outboard-powered TomCat, to provide an
alternate source of power on board and to enable me to charge
depleted batteries when not connected to land.
--Georgs
Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
-----Original Message-----
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs
I'm close to buying one for my outboard-powered TomCat, to provide an
alternate source of power on board and to enable me to charge
depleted batteries when not connected to land.
--Georgs
REPLY
For a long time I have been a strong advocate of DC gensets when dealing
with huge battery banks that could absorb 200 - 600 amps of charging
current. However the biggest charger you can buy readily as an off the shelf
stand alone charger delivers 100 amps. and it cost about one and a half boat
units.
A typical 2500 - 3000 watt inverter can only deliver 100 - 120 amp of
charging power at 12V or 24V.
In other words it will only absorb 1500 - 2000 watt of power from the
genset. Inboard, water cooled gensets are much bigger than that. The
smallest diesel model I have found so far is the Entec at 4000 watts.
In other words it is not even being loaded properly when charging batteries.
But a 2000 watt Honda genset combined with a charger or inverter charger
with adjustable load control called power share or power contol depending on
marketing text is about the most efficient way to recharge a battery bank
from an engine driven source. A typical Xantrex or Victron inverter charger
has the ability to limit the maximum demand on the AC power source to
prevent popping the fuse. This means you can fine tune the charging system
to extract maximum charge current from the fuel burned. For various reasons
gasoline engines in smaller sizes are easier to build than comparabe
ldiesels. Small size diesels tend to be single ot two cylinder units that
produce much vibration and lots of noise. To me the new Honda EU seriss
makes lots of sense. We just need to devise safe mounting arrangements such
as Bob Deering suggests.
Gien the escalating cost of fuel (both diesel and gasoline) it makes sense
to optimize the fuel burn for recharging at anchor.
To deliver 2000 watts of charge current, a 120V alternator is more efficient
than a 12V alternator which also needs a rectifying diode matrix added.
Most people buy a combination inverter/charger in any event.
best regards
Arild
Aril Jensen wrote:
But a 2000 watt Honda genset combined with a charger or inverter charger
with adjustable load control called power share or power contol depending on
marketing text is about the most efficient way to recharge a battery bank
from an engine driven source.
Thanks very much, Arild, for providing the technical explanation
which now has convinced me to proceed with purchasing a Honda
generator
http://www.honda.ca/PowerEng/Generators/InverterandCycloconverter/EU2000iC.htm?Year=2008
for our TomCat. After I have used the EU2000iC for a while, I'll
report back to the List.
--Georgs
Georgs Kolesnikovs
At Last, TomCat 24
Frenchman's Bay, Lake Ontario
http://tomcat-tales.blogspot.com