Re: [time-nuts] Shera revisted
Dear time-nuts,
My name is Joakim Langlet (SM0OET) and I just recently joined this list.
As Brooks Shera was mentioned, I remembered that I was referenced in the
footnotes of the original article in the QST - July 1998. It feels
almost historical now. Brooks bought a few OCXOs from me.
I am currently working on a GPS stabilized OCXO.
It is based on a Xilinx Zynq FPGA as the processor and counter arrangement.
The hardware is starting to take shape. The control voltage of a 20 MHz
OCXO is set by a DAC coupling from which I hope to set the voltage in
very small steps.
The OCXO has a CMOS level output which is converted to LVDS and is wired
to the FPGA board. The Xilinx Zynq take a minimum frequency of 19 MHz as
input to the PLL of the clock tile. My intention is to scale up the
clock to some where a bit over 200 MHz to be fed to the counters.The 1
PPS from the GPS receiver is also fed into the FPGA to gate the counters.
The reason for my choice of processor is that I want to run Linux on it
in order benefit from the large software base. Time distribution using
PTPv2 and a nice web-application to visualize and control what is going
on inside is part of the intended concept.
I still have a long way to the finish line but I will try to present
some results as I proceed.
I am following what is written on this list with great interest. It
feels good to know that I am not the only nut ....
BR/
Joakim
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Joakim Langlet
joakim.langlet@seaview.se wrote:
Dear time-nuts,
My name is Joakim Langlet (SM0OET) and I just recently joined this list. As
Brooks Shera was mentioned, I remembered that I was referenced in the
footnotes of the original article in the QST - July 1998. It feels almost
historical now. Brooks bought a few OCXOs from me.
I am currently working on a GPS stabilized OCXO.
It is based on a Xilinx Zynq FPGA as the processor and counter arrangement.
The hardware is starting to take shape. The control voltage of a 20 MHz OCXO
is set by a DAC coupling from which I hope to set the voltage in very small
steps.
The OCXO has a CMOS level output which is converted to LVDS and is wired to
the FPGA board. The Xilinx Zynq take a minimum frequency of 19 MHz as input
to the PLL of the clock tile. My intention is to scale up the clock to some
where a bit over 200 MHz to be fed to the counters.The 1 PPS from the GPS
receiver is also fed into the FPGA to gate the counters.
The reason for my choice of processor is that I want to run Linux on it in
order benefit from the large software base. Time distribution using PTPv2
and a nice web-application to visualize and control what is going on inside
is part of the intended concept.
I still have a long way to the finish line but I will try to present some
results as I proceed.
I am following what is written on this list with great interest. It feels
good to know that I am not the only nut ....
BR/
Joakim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
The Red Pitaya uses a Zynq, and there's an (unofficial) SDR application
available to experiment with.
Cheers
Michael
On Thursday, 11 August 2016, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Joakim Langlet
<joakim.langlet@seaview.se javascript:;> wrote:
Dear time-nuts,
My name is Joakim Langlet (SM0OET) and I just recently joined this list.
As
Brooks Shera was mentioned, I remembered that I was referenced in the
footnotes of the original article in the QST - July 1998. It feels almost
historical now. Brooks bought a few OCXOs from me.
I am currently working on a GPS stabilized OCXO.
It is based on a Xilinx Zynq FPGA as the processor and counter
arrangement.
The hardware is starting to take shape. The control voltage of a 20 MHz
OCXO
is set by a DAC coupling from which I hope to set the voltage in very
small
steps.
The OCXO has a CMOS level output which is converted to LVDS and is wired
to
the FPGA board. The Xilinx Zynq take a minimum frequency of 19 MHz as
input
to the PLL of the clock tile. My intention is to scale up the clock to
some
where a bit over 200 MHz to be fed to the counters.The 1 PPS from the GPS
receiver is also fed into the FPGA to gate the counters.
The reason for my choice of processor is that I want to run Linux on it
in
order benefit from the large software base. Time distribution using PTPv2
and a nice web-application to visualize and control what is going on
inside
is part of the intended concept.
I still have a long way to the finish line but I will try to present some
results as I proceed.
I am following what is written on this list with great interest. It feels
good to know that I am not the only nut ....
BR/
Joakim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com javascript:;
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com javascript:;
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
You are so right, Chris.
The Zynq is absolutely an overkill for an ordinary GPSDO.
What I think is attractive with the Zynq are the possibilities to
experiment with different implementations of counters and gates without
soldering and that you can get pretty fast counters well integrated with
the processor.
The Zynq would be pretty good for SDR experiments too, as you point out.
That may well be my next project.
On 2016-08-11 05:18, Chris Albertson wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
Hi
To your earlier point, there are a number of fairly low cost boards with Zynq’s on them.
They aren’t into the $5 range, but they are not that much more than one of the Beagle
boards.
Bob
On Aug 10, 2016, at 11:18 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Joakim Langlet
joakim.langlet@seaview.se wrote:
Dear time-nuts,
My name is Joakim Langlet (SM0OET) and I just recently joined this list. As
Brooks Shera was mentioned, I remembered that I was referenced in the
footnotes of the original article in the QST - July 1998. It feels almost
historical now. Brooks bought a few OCXOs from me.
I am currently working on a GPS stabilized OCXO.
It is based on a Xilinx Zynq FPGA as the processor and counter arrangement.
The hardware is starting to take shape. The control voltage of a 20 MHz OCXO
is set by a DAC coupling from which I hope to set the voltage in very small
steps.
The OCXO has a CMOS level output which is converted to LVDS and is wired to
the FPGA board. The Xilinx Zynq take a minimum frequency of 19 MHz as input
to the PLL of the clock tile. My intention is to scale up the clock to some
where a bit over 200 MHz to be fed to the counters.The 1 PPS from the GPS
receiver is also fed into the FPGA to gate the counters.
The reason for my choice of processor is that I want to run Linux on it in
order benefit from the large software base. Time distribution using PTPv2
and a nice web-application to visualize and control what is going on inside
is part of the intended concept.
I still have a long way to the finish line but I will try to present some
results as I proceed.
I am following what is written on this list with great interest. It feels
good to know that I am not the only nut ....
BR/
Joakim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
On 8/10/16 8:18 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
There are also some nice cypresses semiconductor parts that are similar and have a really nice dev environment.
Basically a core surrounded by programmable logic. Code in C ore close to it.
On Aug 11, 2016, at 07:06, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
To your earlier point, there are a number of fairly low cost boards with Zynq’s on them.
They aren’t into the $5 range, but they are not that much more than one of the Beagle
boards.
Bob
On Aug 10, 2016, at 11:18 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the Zynq. Wow you get a dual core ARM and an
FPGA all in one package. It seems overkill for a GPSDO but not the
type you are making as you can transferring the time out of the GPSDO
using PTP.
The Zyng looks to the the perfect platform for low-cost SDR.
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Joakim Langlet
joakim.langlet@seaview.se wrote:
Dear time-nuts,
My name is Joakim Langlet (SM0OET) and I just recently joined this list. As
Brooks Shera was mentioned, I remembered that I was referenced in the
footnotes of the original article in the QST - July 1998. It feels almost
historical now. Brooks bought a few OCXOs from me.
I am currently working on a GPS stabilized OCXO.
It is based on a Xilinx Zynq FPGA as the processor and counter arrangement.
The hardware is starting to take shape. The control voltage of a 20 MHz OCXO
is set by a DAC coupling from which I hope to set the voltage in very small
steps.
The OCXO has a CMOS level output which is converted to LVDS and is wired to
the FPGA board. The Xilinx Zynq take a minimum frequency of 19 MHz as input
to the PLL of the clock tile. My intention is to scale up the clock to some
where a bit over 200 MHz to be fed to the counters.The 1 PPS from the GPS
receiver is also fed into the FPGA to gate the counters.
The reason for my choice of processor is that I want to run Linux on it in
order benefit from the large software base. Time distribution using PTPv2
and a nice web-application to visualize and control what is going on inside
is part of the intended concept.
I still have a long way to the finish line but I will try to present some
results as I proceed.
I am following what is written on this list with great interest. It feels
good to know that I am not the only nut ....
BR/
Joakim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi Bob,
If I understand the question correctly, yes. The DMTDs that I've encountered so far use a zero-crossing detector and a TIC. I wanted to build sort of a hybrid system that has a DMTD front end and an SDR back end. It seemed to me that that would be sort of half way between a DMTD and a Timepod. But whereas the Timepod digitizes 4 RF signals, this would digitize 2 audio signals. It may be that it suffers all the disadvantages of both and has the advantages of neither, but I thought I'd build it and see where it leads.
As to the 1 to 10 Hz range, doesn't that depend on the heterodyne frequency you choose? I mean, you don't have to use a 10 Hz offset, do you?
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 19:29:08 +0000 (UTC)
Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try
again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that
way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having
said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those
I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and
supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
If you are going the soundcard way, i would like to point you at
http://time.kinali.ch/phase_noise_measurement/
You can find there two pdfs how to build a phase noise measurement
system using USB soundcards (kindly translated by Azelio Borani).
Adapting this to a DMTD system using two low frequency inputs
shouldn't be too hard. But please be aware that you should not
go below 100Hz or so, if you want to prevent the ADC DC drift to
confund your measurement. Probably even stay around 1kHz.
Attila Kinali
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
Thank Attila. At this point I'm mostly just collecting ideas. I hope to put something to copper in a month or two.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch>
To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 19:29:08 +0000 (UTC)
Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try
again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that
way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having
said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those
I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and
supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
If you are going the soundcard way, i would like to point you at
http://time.kinali.ch/phase_noise_measurement/
You can find there two pdfs how to build a phase noise measurement
system using USB soundcards (kindly translated by Azelio Borani).
Adapting this to a DMTD system using two low frequency inputs
shouldn't be too hard. But please be aware that you should not
go below 100Hz or so, if you want to prevent the ADC DC drift to
confund your measurement. Probably even stay around 1kHz.
Attila Kinali
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
Hi
In a DMTD (or in the equally useful single mixer setup) the advantage for frequency measurement
comes from the downconversion process. The further you downconvert (10 Hz vs 100 Hz) the
greater your potential resolution. The design approach is to push the beat note as low as you
can without running into other limits. With conventional setups that is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
If you want to fiddle a bit, there is no particular reason why you must use a limiter after the
mixer. An ADC after the mixer could be used to process the audio and estimate it’s frequency.
The same sort of ADC setup might give you some phase noise data.
The gotcha with all this is that a single mixer / quadrature approach will give you much better
phase noise data than a single or dual mixer setup. If phase noise is the objective, there is no
reason to run the mixer setup as a DMTD. With a DMTD you digitize the carrier (audio beat note)
and then try to dig down 195 db to get to the phase noise. With a quadrature approach you null out
the carrier. Then all you have to deal with is the noise.
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
If I understand the question correctly, yes. The DMTDs that I've encountered so far use a zero-crossing detector and a TIC. I wanted to build sort of a hybrid system that has a DMTD front end and an SDR back end. It seemed to me that that would be sort of half way between a DMTD and a Timepod. But whereas the Timepod digitizes 4 RF signals, this would digitize 2 audio signals. It may be that it suffers all the disadvantages of both and has the advantages of neither, but I thought I'd build it and see where it leads.
As to the 1 to 10 Hz range, doesn't that depend on the heterodyne frequency you choose? I mean, you don't have to use a 10 Hz offset, do you?
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
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From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
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Hi Bob,
Thanks. Well, I guess the next thing to do is to get a USB sound card, and lay down some copper. I did manage to get some DBMs and power splitters from Mini-circuits, and I'll use the LPF from the NIST DMTD and see what I can come up with. Hmm, I'll have to look at the LPFs, won't I? No amps or ZCDs, of course. I think I'll start with a single mixer to see what that gets me. But I'll go ahead and layout the board for a DMTD with power splitter and two LPFs for the most versatility. If I can get something better out of it than the 5370, it does solve a lot of problems for me. The 8640B should be fine as a heterodyne oscillator. Also, I can experiment with a pair of FCC-1/FCC-2 DDS systems I have that Bob Okas designed and sold before he passed away, as well to see if they have any value for this application. I have choices for master reference oscillator, as well.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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GFS GPSDO list:
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From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
In a DMTD (or in the equally useful single mixer setup) the advantage for frequency measurement
comes from the downconversion process. The further you downconvert (10 Hz vs 100 Hz) the
greater your potential resolution. The design approach is to push the beat note as low as you
can without running into other limits. With conventional setups that is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
If you want to fiddle a bit, there is no particular reason why you must use a limiter after the
mixer. An ADC after the mixer could be used to process the audio and estimate it’s frequency.
The same sort of ADC setup might give you some phase noise data.
The gotcha with all this is that a single mixer / quadrature approach will give you much better
phase noise data than a single or dual mixer setup. If phase noise is the objective, there is no
reason to run the mixer setup as a DMTD. With a DMTD you digitize the carrier (audio beat note)
and then try to dig down 195 db to get to the phase noise. With a quadrature approach you null out
the carrier. Then all you have to deal with is the noise.
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
If I understand the question correctly, yes. The DMTDs that I've encountered so far use a zero-crossing detector and a TIC. I wanted to build sort of a hybrid system that has a DMTD front end and an SDR back end. It seemed to me that that would be sort of half way between a DMTD and a Timepod. But whereas the Timepod digitizes 4 RF signals, this would digitize 2 audio signals. It may be that it suffers all the disadvantages of both and has the advantages of neither, but I thought I'd build it and see where it leads.
As to the 1 to 10 Hz range, doesn't that depend on the heterodyne frequency you choose? I mean, you don't have to use a 10 Hz offset, do you?
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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GFS GPSDO list:
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From: Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
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Hi
There have been a lot of threads on DMTD’s here. There have not been quite as many
on single mixer setups. The same basic principles apply. I would be careful about duplicating
the original NIST DMTD from the first paper. I believe that “That’s what you get when you have
a statistics guy do an RF project” is about as close to a direct quote as I can come up with after
nearly 40 years …. One key point - you need about 120 to 140 db of isolation between the mixers in
the DMTD. At that level, you have to measure it. A calculated number is likely to be wrong.
There are a few other issues.
Without a proper limiter, the DMTD or single mixer will actually be worse than your 5370 by a
significant margin. With a limiter, you will still need a computing counter to get it to work well.
The deal is fairly simple:
You are after 1x10^-13 accuracy
You start with 10 MHz
You go down to 10 Hz
Thus you get 1x10^6 from the heterodyne process. You still need 13-6 = 7 orders of magnitude.
Thus you need to measure the 10 Hz to about 7 places accurately. Resolution does not matter
much in this case, it’s accuracy you are after. Without a proper limiter, your 10 Hz will come out as
10.1 with the rest of the digits purely random.
Fixing that with an ADC only works if you have an ADC that is quiet below the audio range and
that is not blocked (AC coupled) at to high a frequency. You also need to write a bunch of custom
DSP software to get it running.
Lots of fun !!
Bob
On Aug 12, 2016, at 1:29 AM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
Thanks. Well, I guess the next thing to do is to get a USB sound card, and lay down some copper. I did manage to get some DBMs and power splitters from Mini-circuits, and I'll use the LPF from the NIST DMTD and see what I can come up with. Hmm, I'll have to look at the LPFs, won't I? No amps or ZCDs, of course. I think I'll start with a single mixer to see what that gets me. But I'll go ahead and layout the board for a DMTD with power splitter and two LPFs for the most versatility. If I can get something better out of it than the 5370, it does solve a lot of problems for me. The 8640B should be fine as a heterodyne oscillator. Also, I can experiment with a pair of FCC-1/FCC-2 DDS systems I have that Bob Okas designed and sold before he passed away, as well to see if they have any value for this application. I have choices for master reference oscillator, as well.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
In a DMTD (or in the equally useful single mixer setup) the advantage for frequency measurement
comes from the downconversion process. The further you downconvert (10 Hz vs 100 Hz) the
greater your potential resolution. The design approach is to push the beat note as low as you
can without running into other limits. With conventional setups that is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
If you want to fiddle a bit, there is no particular reason why you must use a limiter after the
mixer. An ADC after the mixer could be used to process the audio and estimate it’s frequency.
The same sort of ADC setup might give you some phase noise data.
The gotcha with all this is that a single mixer / quadrature approach will give you much better
phase noise data than a single or dual mixer setup. If phase noise is the objective, there is no
reason to run the mixer setup as a DMTD. With a DMTD you digitize the carrier (audio beat note)
and then try to dig down 195 db to get to the phase noise. With a quadrature approach you null out
the carrier. Then all you have to deal with is the noise.
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
If I understand the question correctly, yes. The DMTDs that I've encountered so far use a zero-crossing detector and a TIC. I wanted to build sort of a hybrid system that has a DMTD front end and an SDR back end. It seemed to me that that would be sort of half way between a DMTD and a Timepod. But whereas the Timepod digitizes 4 RF signals, this would digitize 2 audio signals. It may be that it suffers all the disadvantages of both and has the advantages of neither, but I thought I'd build it and see where it leads.
As to the 1 to 10 Hz range, doesn't that depend on the heterodyne frequency you choose? I mean, you don't have to use a 10 Hz offset, do you?
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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There is a huge range of quality in USB audio interfaces. I'm sure
you can read the specs. Interestingly the price is not so much an
indicator of quality. The best places to shop are the outfits that
sell to audio recording engineers, the people who work in studios.
The worst places are those who sell to gammers and Home Theater
enthusiasts. Likely has something to do with the education level of
the customers Good results with brads : Focusrite, MOTU, Apogee,
Presonus. One of the better places to buy is Sweetwater.com. I
also use these for audio spectrum analyzers and audio free ocilascope
as well as there intended audio recording use.
When designing your PCB don't forget to take advantage of the #1
feature of a professional level USB interface: 600 Ohm balanced
inputs. They all use XLR connectors into balanced inputs to
dramatically reduce the noise. The 1/8" stereo jack on the cheap
consumer stuff does not know the difference between a shield and a
signal ground and use try and eliminate group loops when you have USB
and 1/8" stereo both plugged into the same box.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
Thanks. Well, I guess the next thing to do is to get a USB sound card, and lay down some copper. I did manage to get some DBMs and power splitters from Mini-circuits, and I'll use the LPF from the NIST DMTD and see what I can come up with. Hmm, I'll have to look at the LPFs, won't I? No amps or ZCDs, of course. I think I'll start with a single mixer to see what that gets me. But I'll go ahead and layout the board for a DMTD with power splitter and two LPFs for the most versatility. If I can get something better out of it than the 5370, it does solve a lot of problems for me. The 8640B should be fine as a heterodyne oscillator. Also, I can experiment with a pair of FCC-1/FCC-2 DDS systems I have that Bob Okas designed and sold before he passed away, as well to see if they have any value for this application. I have choices for master reference oscillator, as well.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
In a DMTD (or in the equally useful single mixer setup) the advantage for frequency measurement
comes from the downconversion process. The further you downconvert (10 Hz vs 100 Hz) the
greater your potential resolution. The design approach is to push the beat note as low as you
can without running into other limits. With conventional setups that is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
If you want to fiddle a bit, there is no particular reason why you must use a limiter after the
mixer. An ADC after the mixer could be used to process the audio and estimate it’s frequency.
The same sort of ADC setup might give you some phase noise data.
The gotcha with all this is that a single mixer / quadrature approach will give you much better
phase noise data than a single or dual mixer setup. If phase noise is the objective, there is no
reason to run the mixer setup as a DMTD. With a DMTD you digitize the carrier (audio beat note)
and then try to dig down 195 db to get to the phase noise. With a quadrature approach you null out
the carrier. Then all you have to deal with is the noise.
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Bob,
If I understand the question correctly, yes. The DMTDs that I've encountered so far use a zero-crossing detector and a TIC. I wanted to build sort of a hybrid system that has a DMTD front end and an SDR back end. It seemed to me that that would be sort of half way between a DMTD and a Timepod. But whereas the Timepod digitizes 4 RF signals, this would digitize 2 audio signals. It may be that it suffers all the disadvantages of both and has the advantages of neither, but I thought I'd build it and see where it leads.
As to the 1 to 10 Hz range, doesn't that depend on the heterodyne frequency you choose? I mean, you don't have to use a 10 Hz offset, do you?
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi
Just to clarify:
You are looking for a way to digitize the output(s) of the mixer(s) in a DMTD. The
“target signal” is in the 1 to 10 Hz range.
Is that correct or are you looking for something to use instead of a DMTD?
Bob
On Aug 11, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Hi Brooke,
It looks like I've asked a question poorly, yet again. So, let me try again. I have this idea of combining a DMTD with an SDR. So, said that way, it looks like what I really need is a 2-channel audio SDR. And having said that, maybe what I'm looking for is an external USB sound card. Those I can find. I can probably even figure out how to convert them to DC and supply them with a disciplined oscillator, if needed.
Bob
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost SDR suitable for phase noise measurement?
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to 10 MHz.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
A number of posts have appeared about Zynq SDRs on the "Shera revisited" thread. So, I'd like to ask the more general question: Are there any low cost SDRs that are suitable for measuring phase noise when coupled with a DMTD? I believe what I'm looking for is something with enough bits to work in the audio range down to DC. Yes, I could use a modified sound card, but I'm really looking for something not sound card related. My thought was to use a DMTD with a heterodyne frequency of maybe 5KHz.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Where can I find this mod?
On 8/11/2016 11:36 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi Bob:
The SDR-IQ has a lower frequency limit of 500 Hz.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
There is a mod that replaces the on board 66 MHz oscillator with one locked to
10 MHz.