Empathy List Archives

GS

Gary Stavrou

Sat, Oct 7, 2006 3:04 AM

May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines.
It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in
length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would
be hard to beat.
The obvious advantages are:

Lower initial purchase and installation costs.
Cheaper maintenance.
Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper.
Having more usable space in the hulls.
Better manoeverability at slower speeds.
Lifting the leg out of the water when moored.
Less risk of propeller damage.
Smoother, though higher revving, motors.

Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric
power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I
cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice.
Gary

May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would be hard to beat. The obvious advantages are: 1. Lower initial purchase and installation costs. 2. Cheaper maintenance. 3. Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper. 4. Having more usable space in the hulls. 5. Better manoeverability at slower speeds. 6. Lifting the leg out of the water when moored. 7. Less risk of propeller damage. 8. Smoother, though higher revving, motors. Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice. Gary

BK

Bob Kupps

Sat, Oct 7, 2006 3:58 AM

Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi thrust OBs.

In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible with dinghy motor.

Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed, IMO are:

Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be difficult or impossible to safely carry.
Reduced reliability
Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance.
By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation. Even mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring into steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling (and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot.

Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less significant

Gary Stavrou gstavrou@bigpond.net.au wrote:
May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines.
It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in
length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would
be hard to beat.
The obvious advantages are:

Lower initial purchase and installation costs.
Cheaper maintenance.
Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper.
Having more usable space in the hulls.
Better manoeverability at slower speeds.
Lifting the leg out of the water when moored.
Less risk of propeller damage.
Smoother, though higher revving, motors.

Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric
power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I
cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice.
Gary

Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi thrust OBs. In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible with dinghy motor. Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed, IMO are: 1) Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be difficult or impossible to safely carry. 2) Reduced reliability 3) Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance. 4) By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation. Even mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring into steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling (and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot. Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less significant Gary Stavrou <gstavrou@bigpond.net.au> wrote: May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would be hard to beat. The obvious advantages are: 1. Lower initial purchase and installation costs. 2. Cheaper maintenance. 3. Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper. 4. Having more usable space in the hulls. 5. Better manoeverability at slower speeds. 6. Lifting the leg out of the water when moored. 7. Less risk of propeller damage. 8. Smoother, though higher revving, motors. Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice. Gary _______________________________________________ Power-Catamaran Mailing List Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

RB

Roger Bingham

Sat, Oct 7, 2006 8:30 AM

Gary Stavrou asked

May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard
engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of
about 9-10.5m in
length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would
be hard to beat.

Hi Gary

Did someone post this link or did I find it?

http://www.m-pcm.com/

Anyway this Turkish built cat employs outboards though the cabin trim is not
to everyone's taste.

Note the climb up to the berth!!

Regards

Roger Bingham

Gary Stavrou asked > May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard > engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of > about 9-10.5m in > length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would > be hard to beat. Hi Gary Did someone post this link or did I find it? http://www.m-pcm.com/ Anyway this Turkish built cat employs outboards though the cabin trim is not to everyone's taste. Note the climb up to the berth!! Regards Roger Bingham

LK

L&S Kubis

Mon, Oct 9, 2006 1:39 AM

I live in Australia, on the Gold Coast and currently have a 2004, 40 ft
Ozzycat ( ex-Cougar Power Cat ) with a pair of new 250 HP Suzuki's with
extended shafts on her and just love them!! Prior to this Cat I had a
similar sized Noosa Cat powered by a pair of Turbo-charged 350 HP Yanmars.

I must say I like the Suzuki's much better at this point in time. They are
quieter, much smoother, offer more maneuverability on a narrow beam Cat, no
fouling of the props, far more responsive to the throttle than the diesels,
(a feature appreciated by all the fisherman when crossing the numerous
bars), outboards just pop up should one hit a mud bank whereas the fixed
prop is damaged or pulled out of the boat, boat beaches easily, etc!!

Regarding use of Diesel fuel vs Gas --as was pointed out to me many times --
there are more pleasure craft powered by gasoline engines than diesels and
they seem to do well!!

The electrical output of the Suzuki's alternators is down a bit from the
Yanmars but I have had no problem keeping my generator-less boat going
fitted out with inverters, a very extensive electronics suite and a battery
bank of almost 1000 AMP/Hrs.

Re- hotwater, I use an on-demand type propane heater which provides endless
amounts of hot water quietly!! My friend has had one of these heaters on his
sailboat for 15 years without problems and he has cruised extensively!!

Most of the Power Cats in Australia below the mid 30's in length are powered
by outboards for these reasons, particularly those used for fishing and
rescue purposes !!!

The niggly part of using the outboards is that need to be flushed out after
using them and tying up the boat for a while!!

Nevertheless the new Suzuki's are great and many people are switching to
them because of their reliability and performance.
BTW -- I have no connection to Suzuki -- I'm just a happy user!!

Cheers!
Lloyd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Kupps" n6bk@yahoo.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards

Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi thrust
OBs.

In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total
machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible with
dinghy motor.

Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed, IMO
are:

Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be difficult
or impossible to safely carry.
Reduced reliability
Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance.
By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation. Even
mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I
frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring into
steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling
(and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot.

Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching
characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less
significant

Gary Stavrou gstavrou@bigpond.net.au wrote:
May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines.
It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in
length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would
be hard to beat.
The obvious advantages are:

Lower initial purchase and installation costs.
Cheaper maintenance.
Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper.
Having more usable space in the hulls.
Better manoeverability at slower speeds.
Lifting the leg out of the water when moored.
Less risk of propeller damage.
Smoother, though higher revving, motors.

Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric
power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I
cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice.
Gary

Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

I live in Australia, on the Gold Coast and currently have a 2004, 40 ft Ozzycat ( ex-Cougar Power Cat ) with a pair of new 250 HP Suzuki's with extended shafts on her and just love them!! Prior to this Cat I had a similar sized Noosa Cat powered by a pair of Turbo-charged 350 HP Yanmars. I must say I like the Suzuki's much better at this point in time. They are quieter, much smoother, offer more maneuverability on a narrow beam Cat, no fouling of the props, far more responsive to the throttle than the diesels, (a feature appreciated by all the fisherman when crossing the numerous bars), outboards just pop up should one hit a mud bank whereas the fixed prop is damaged or pulled out of the boat, boat beaches easily, etc!! Regarding use of Diesel fuel vs Gas --as was pointed out to me many times -- there are more pleasure craft powered by gasoline engines than diesels and they seem to do well!! The electrical output of the Suzuki's alternators is down a bit from the Yanmars but I have had no problem keeping my generator-less boat going fitted out with inverters, a very extensive electronics suite and a battery bank of almost 1000 AMP/Hrs. Re- hotwater, I use an on-demand type propane heater which provides endless amounts of hot water quietly!! My friend has had one of these heaters on his sailboat for 15 years without problems and he has cruised extensively!! Most of the Power Cats in Australia below the mid 30's in length are powered by outboards for these reasons, particularly those used for fishing and rescue purposes !!! The niggly part of using the outboards is that need to be flushed out after using them and tying up the boat for a while!! Nevertheless the new Suzuki's are great and many people are switching to them because of their reliability and performance. BTW -- I have no connection to Suzuki -- I'm just a happy user!! Cheers! Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Kupps" <n6bk@yahoo.com> To: "Power Catamaran List" <power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards > Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi thrust > OBs. > > In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total > machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible with > dinghy motor. > > Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed, IMO > are: > > 1) Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be difficult > or impossible to safely carry. > 2) Reduced reliability > 3) Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance. > 4) By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation. Even > mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I > frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring into > steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling > (and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot. > > Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching > characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less > significant > > > Gary Stavrou <gstavrou@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard engines. > It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about 9-10.5m in > length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP range would > be hard to beat. > The obvious advantages are: > 1. Lower initial purchase and installation costs. > 2. Cheaper maintenance. > 3. Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper. > 4. Having more usable space in the hulls. > 5. Better manoeverability at slower speeds. > 6. Lifting the leg out of the water when moored. > 7. Less risk of propeller damage. > 8. Smoother, though higher revving, motors. > > Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric > power generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I > cant see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice. > Gary > _______________________________________________ > Power-Catamaran Mailing List > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. > _______________________________________________ > Power-Catamaran Mailing List

RD

Robert Deering

Mon, Oct 9, 2006 2:40 AM

Lloyd,

Thanks much for the report. I have a bunch of questions, so please bear
with me...

Could you please provide a little more info on your boat? Is it a
planing or dispacement hull? Displacement? What kind of speed do you
cruise at? What is your fuel consumption? How do you use the boat?
And the outboards - are the extended lower units an after-market add-on?
What kind of props are you running?

Thanks in advance - I've not been able to get much info on
outboard-powered cats in your size range - most boat-builders I've
talked to have been pretty dubious about using outboards on a boat that
size.

Bob Deering
Juneau Alaska

-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of L&S
Kubis
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:40 PM
To: Power Catamaran List
Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards

I live in Australia, on the Gold Coast and currently have a 2004, 40 ft
Ozzycat ( ex-Cougar Power Cat ) with a pair of new 250 HP Suzuki's with
extended shafts on her and just love them!! Prior to this Cat I had a
similar sized Noosa Cat powered by a pair of Turbo-charged 350 HP
Yanmars.

I must say I like the Suzuki's much better at this point in time. They
are
quieter, much smoother, offer more maneuverability on a narrow beam Cat,
no
fouling of the props, far more responsive to the throttle than the
diesels,
(a feature appreciated by all the fisherman when crossing the numerous
bars), outboards just pop up should one hit a mud bank whereas the fixed

prop is damaged or pulled out of the boat, boat beaches easily, etc!!

Regarding use of Diesel fuel vs Gas --as was pointed out to me many
times --
there are more pleasure craft powered by gasoline engines than diesels
and
they seem to do well!!

The electrical output of the Suzuki's alternators is down a bit from the

Yanmars but I have had no problem keeping my generator-less boat going
fitted out with inverters, a very extensive electronics suite and a
battery
bank of almost 1000 AMP/Hrs.

Re- hotwater, I use an on-demand type propane heater which provides
endless
amounts of hot water quietly!! My friend has had one of these heaters on
his
sailboat for 15 years without problems and he has cruised extensively!!

Most of the Power Cats in Australia below the mid 30's in length are
powered
by outboards for these reasons, particularly those used for fishing and
rescue purposes !!!

The niggly part of using the outboards is that need to be flushed out
after
using them and tying up the boat for a while!!

Nevertheless the new Suzuki's are great and many people are switching to

them because of their reliability and performance.
BTW -- I have no connection to Suzuki -- I'm just a happy user!!

Cheers!
Lloyd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Kupps" n6bk@yahoo.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards

Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi
thrust
OBs.

In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total
machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible

with

dinghy motor.

Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed,
IMO
are:

Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be
difficult
or impossible to safely carry.
Reduced reliability
Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance.
By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation.

Even

mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I
frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring

into

steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling

(and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot.

Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching
characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less
significant

Gary Stavrou gstavrou@bigpond.net.au wrote:
May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard
engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about
9-10.5m in length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP
range would be hard to beat. The obvious advantages are:

Lower initial purchase and installation costs.
Cheaper maintenance.
Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper.
Having more usable space in the hulls.
Better manoeverability at slower speeds.
Lifting the leg out of the water when moored.
Less risk of propeller damage.
Smoother, though higher revving, motors.

Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric power

generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I cant
see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice. Gary

Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

Lloyd, Thanks much for the report. I have a bunch of questions, so please bear with me... Could you please provide a little more info on your boat? Is it a planing or dispacement hull? Displacement? What kind of speed do you cruise at? What is your fuel consumption? How do you use the boat? And the outboards - are the extended lower units an after-market add-on? What kind of props are you running? Thanks in advance - I've not been able to get much info on outboard-powered cats in your size range - most boat-builders I've talked to have been pretty dubious about using outboards on a boat that size. Bob Deering Juneau Alaska -----Original Message----- From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of L&S Kubis Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:40 PM To: Power Catamaran List Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards I live in Australia, on the Gold Coast and currently have a 2004, 40 ft Ozzycat ( ex-Cougar Power Cat ) with a pair of new 250 HP Suzuki's with extended shafts on her and just love them!! Prior to this Cat I had a similar sized Noosa Cat powered by a pair of Turbo-charged 350 HP Yanmars. I must say I like the Suzuki's much better at this point in time. They are quieter, much smoother, offer more maneuverability on a narrow beam Cat, no fouling of the props, far more responsive to the throttle than the diesels, (a feature appreciated by all the fisherman when crossing the numerous bars), outboards just pop up should one hit a mud bank whereas the fixed prop is damaged or pulled out of the boat, boat beaches easily, etc!! Regarding use of Diesel fuel vs Gas --as was pointed out to me many times -- there are more pleasure craft powered by gasoline engines than diesels and they seem to do well!! The electrical output of the Suzuki's alternators is down a bit from the Yanmars but I have had no problem keeping my generator-less boat going fitted out with inverters, a very extensive electronics suite and a battery bank of almost 1000 AMP/Hrs. Re- hotwater, I use an on-demand type propane heater which provides endless amounts of hot water quietly!! My friend has had one of these heaters on his sailboat for 15 years without problems and he has cruised extensively!! Most of the Power Cats in Australia below the mid 30's in length are powered by outboards for these reasons, particularly those used for fishing and rescue purposes !!! The niggly part of using the outboards is that need to be flushed out after using them and tying up the boat for a while!! Nevertheless the new Suzuki's are great and many people are switching to them because of their reliability and performance. BTW -- I have no connection to Suzuki -- I'm just a happy user!! Cheers! Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Kupps" <n6bk@yahoo.com> To: "Power Catamaran List" <power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards > Hello I had a 46' Wharram sailing cat with two four stroke 25hp hi > thrust > OBs. > > In addition to the advantages mentioned I would add lighter total > machinery weight including the drive gear and fuel/parts compatible with > dinghy motor. > > Much more significant disadvantages to the real ones already listed, > IMO > are: > > 1) Total useful load for the same cruising performance would be > difficult > or impossible to safely carry. > 2) Reduced reliability > 3) Fumes are a real hazard that must be dealt with some vigilance. > 4) By far the most important problem will likely be prop cavitation. Even > mounted on boxes which hinged down from under the cockpit seats, I > frequently had to slow down to rediculously slow speeds when motoring into > steep seas to avoid prop cavitation and the constant throttle handling > (and noise) can get tiresome quickly even with an autopilot. > > Naturally depending on one's intended use, and the pitching > characteristics of a particular hull form, these may be more or less > significant > > > Gary Stavrou <gstavrou@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > May I invite your general opinions on the subject of outboard > engines. It seems to me that for a light displacement cat of about > 9-10.5m in length that a couple of outboard motors in the 60-90 HP > range would be hard to beat. The obvious advantages are: > 1. Lower initial purchase and installation costs. > 2. Cheaper maintenance. > 3. Keeping fumes and vibration out of the hull proper. > 4. Having more usable space in the hulls. > 5. Better manoeverability at slower speeds. > 6. Lifting the leg out of the water when moored. > 7. Less risk of propeller damage. > 8. Smoother, though higher revving, motors. > > Other than having hot water without a gas setup, better electric power > generation and that satisfying throb of a low-revving diesel I cant > see why the outboards wouldn't be the sensible choice. Gary > _______________________________________________ > Power-Catamaran Mailing List > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. > _______________________________________________ > Power-Catamaran Mailing List _______________________________________________ Power-Catamaran Mailing List

LK

L&S Kubis

Mon, Oct 9, 2006 4:16 AM

No problem with the questions -- I may not be able to answer all of them as
I am currently in Canada and my data is in OZ!!

The Ozzycat is a narrow beamed planning design as many of the Cats in use in
Australia are as they are mostly used for fishing which requires a good turn
of speed!! My particular boat weighs in at just over 7 tons with near empty
tanks . With tanks about half filled ( full tankage is 1500L ), the sweet
point for the boat is 15-18 Knt's, full out she will easily do 30Knt's but
you really don't want to watch the fuel consumption meters!!. My Yanmars
also sucked plenty of fuel whenever the Turbo-Chargers kicked in!!

The Suzuki's have a larger dia prop compared to it's competitors being 16".
The boat currently has a 20 pitch prop and is a little over prop'd and needs
some adjustment to get the rev's up a bit at the top end! I can't remember
the fuel burn but I think it was around 50-60L/Hr (total) with 2200 rpm at
16 Knt's. I have a 40 min trip up and down a river before reaching the ocean
which has a speed restriction of 6 Knt's. During this trip I generally run
on one engine and it burns around 16-18 L/Hr as I can remember! I can
confirm these numbers in a couple of weeks as I will be back in OZ!

I have the optional Suzuki extended shafts on the engines!! One word of
caution though is that the bottom of the hull at the rear has to be adjusted
when using outboards to improve the water flow above the prop as the boat
rotates slightly up when going faster!!!!.
The motors are mounted on pods which lower the engines as low a possible. I
have not had any cavitation problems to date even in fairly choppy water!! I
assume if I blast through some of the waves it will obviously have
cavitation at high speed but my Noosa Cat did too with fixed shafts and
props!

I wouldn't be worried about using outboards as long as the boat is designed
properly for them -- there are many fisherman and rescue boats who prefer a
big outboard even in big seas in the ocean!! The rescue boats go out in some
terrible weather and very nasty bar conditions using Cats fitted with
outboards!!

RE-use -- we generally go out and cruise around for weekends to a week out,
mostly at anchor overnight! Haven't had a chance to take it up the coast
yet! I'm told she should be good for about a 500 mile or so hop depending on
how hard one pushes her!

Hope this has helped!!

Cheers!
Lloyd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Deering" deering@ak.net
To: "'Power Catamaran List'" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Outboards