Re: [PUP] The Global Adventure
In a message dated 3/29/2007 2:26:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
scottebulger@comcast.net writes:
There are some out there staring to cross oceans. Perhaps some of
these bold owners will come forward and share their experiences. Of course,
they now think I'm a jerk because I shared my experience with them.
Well, bold I don't know about, (and, no, I don't think you're a jerk :)) but
there are quite a few Selenes who are beginning to cross oceans, and some
that I know of personally who have put many ocean miles on their Selene
trawlers.
I think one of the major differences in Selene and Nordhavn is that Nordhavn
has been producing boats for a much longer period. The oldest Selene is a
2001 as compared with the Nordhavn, whose oldest trawler is. what, 1989,
1990?? (Sorry, I actually can't remember). Anyhow, there is much more history
available in the Nordhavn line for folks to track. We purchased our boat in
early 2003, received it in late 2004 and have spent the last several years
cruising in preparation for making a lengthy circumnavigation. I think all on
this list would agree that one needs several years to prepare for such an
undertaking.
Secondly, Nordhavn does have a formidable marketing strategy, which I feel
has greatly benefited trawlers in general -- all passagemaking trawlers, to be
exact, and good for them. In the meantime, Howard Chen and Jettern Marine
have been so busy building new boats that the marketing for them has just not
come to the surface yet. How many used Selenes do you see on the market?
They are very precious to come by indeed. Again, some of that is a function of
how long they've been being produced (one, by semi-custom one, at a time)
and some of that is a function of how much us Selene owners love our boats --
order your own -- we're not willing to give ours up!
*Scott also wrote: <Selene has an active, vibrant
owners web site where owners can exchange ideas, concerns and criticism with
a group of other owners. In a forum such as this it takes a very outgoing
personality to take the flack in "coming out" with a posting. Once you
throw it out there in public it's fair game for anyone and everyone to
critique. Being a boat owner is like buying into a social club. Since you
have skin in the game you get a license to have an opinion about anything>
So true, Scott. And I would very much like to point out that the Selene
owners forum is open to the public for all to view the issues, "family matters",
warts and all, of our boats and group. Can you say the same about your
group?? I am very proud of and I guess somewhat defensive of our group because
we have left ourselves so vulnerable to criticism. But really, what is there
to hide?? Perhaps I'm naive, but I like to think that we're all sort of in
this trawlering/passagemaking under power thing together, whether we're
sailing Catalina's (under power :) , canoes (under manpower), or, as others have
pointed out, the Cheoy Lees, Krogens, Defevers, or whatever other little ships
have the boldness to venture forth on our oceans. It aint't easy and we all
can use the support of each other, no matter what our vessel of choice is.
So Yeah....we're heading out....and, yep.... we'll keep everyone advised as
to our headway....and....yeah......we love our little ship and have faith
that she will keep us safe, dry, and warm on our travels.
Fair Winds and Seas to All,
Kathy (& John) Youngblood
m/v Mystic Moon - Selene 53
http://mysticmoon.talkspot.com (http://mysticmoon.talkspot.com)
p.s. Saw Alanui as we came back through the locks day before
yesterday.....Lookin' great!! See you in SF or San Diego for sure! Stay in touch......
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Kathy Youngblood (happy Selene owner) wrote:
.......snip........ And I would very much like to point out that the
Selene
owners forum is open to the public for all to view the issues, "family
matters",
warts and all, of our boats and group. Can you say the same about your
group?? I am very proud of and I guess somewhat defensive of our group
because
we have left ourselves so vulnerable to criticism. But really, what is
there
to hide?? Perhaps I'm naive, but I like to think that we're all sort of
in
this trawlering/passagemaking under power thing
together..........snip.........
I also once tried to join the Nordhavn users group and was denied as I did
not own one.
Part of their 'successful marketing program'? Now PAE's smile has that dead
upper lip look from too much botox to the wrinkles.
There are many important/fun/tragic/useless lessons to be learned from each
other's
experience and yes, Nordhavn are spectacular boats in my opinion.
Cordially, Mike Sandiland
Pelagia, 1978 CHB 34
Bellingham, WA
Pelagia Photo Site: www.flickr.com/photos/89481273@N00
Mike commented: I also once tried to join the Nordhavn
users group and was denied as I did not own one. Part of
their 'successful marketing program'? Now PAE's smile has
that dead upper lip look from too much botox to the wrinkles.
There are many important/fun/tragic/useless lessons to be
learned from each other's experience and yes, Nordhavn are
spectacular boats in my opinion.
Scott suggests: Mike, I must agree with part of your observation, but I'm
confused by the botox comment? I guess I'm just thick? Regarding the
policy of an owners only forum: I started a west coast Camano forum. When
I asked the other owners if they wanted an open or closed forum the vast
majority said they preferred a closed one. They wanted to avoid the kind of
questions you get in a general forum like "how long does a diesel engine
last". They wanted to make sure the issues were relevant to their boats,
and that's why they preferred it be closed. I can't tell you the rational
employed on the Nordhavn Owners forum, but I can tell you 95% of the
discussion is "I want to run a cable from here to there, what panel to I
have to remove?". Or, I had a breaker trip and found out the wrong breaker
was installed, better check yours", kind of things. Most of that is of no
interest to non Nordhavn owners.
Having said that, there is exchange between people like Milt Baker or Scott
Strickland that is INVALUABLE. But guess what? They post the same stuff on
PUP! Often I've seen Milts postings in both places, so we really aren't
missing anything.
A final thought because you struck a nerve in your last thought. I too
believe there are some lessons out there that the boating community has not
been able to benefit from. When the tragic accident occurred in Florida
preceding the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally there was very limited discussion of
the specifics of the accident, and how to avoid it. We did learn a boat was
hung up by the stabilizing fin and an anchor line and drifted back on a
sailboat. When the crewmember positioned herself between the two boats she
was crushed to death. A tragic, tragic accident. A Nordhavn 62 was driven
up on a beach in Mexico and a crewmember died, yet today there are no facts
associated with the accident that can be used for others to benefit from.
It's no mystery as to why, look at the recent Earthrace accident. When
property is damaged, or worse yet people are killed, there are moral,
personal and legal ramifications to the incident that have dramatic
influence on many lives. Unlike aircraft accident review boards, I don't
know that marine accidents have the same kinds of protections built in so
witnesses can put their knowledge forward without fear of reprisal or
prosecution. This practice goes back a long way when industry
representatives realized they had to protect witnesses to accidents in order
to get all the facts to make aviation safer. Additionally, a forum like
this is probably the last place you want to discuss something of such
complexity and emotion because of the difficulties in communicating by email
with so many participants. A simple statement can be interpreted so many
ways that trying to discuss anything is challenging. Heck we can't even
agree on COLREG issues, how can we discuss a complex accident? I'm being a
bit extreme in this example, but the fact does linger that there are things
that happen where good, productive discussion would be beneficial, but it's
difficult to do effectively in this medium.
In summary: The Nordhavn Owners forum isn't a branch of the Free Masons or
anything like that, and if you think about it, those members already bought
their boats, so I don't think it's part of their Marketing Plan :)
Secondly, there is real value in discussing these issues, but we have to do
it very carefully, as husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters and others
directly involved will likely read this someday. Everything should be
written realizing the person I'm discussing may have a wife or mother or
father read these comments, I better be very aware of how someone else would
interpret this comment. With that in mind I think beneficial discussion can
be conducted.
Sincerely, Scott Bulger, PUP List Admin
Scott & Group:
I thought I'd throw in a couple of comments too. I'm the volunteer
administrator/operator of the Selene owner's forum. I started the forum
almost 4 years ago because I had just ordered a new Selene and I wanted to
learn from the small group of existing owners out there (and give others a
chance to participate).
Our forum has grown substantially over those 4 years and we recently took a
poll among the owners to see whether they wanted it to be private or public.
The owners overwhelmingly voted to keep it public. I'm sure they had a
variety of reasons and there were a few dissenters, but over 90% wanted it
public. I think they all realize that there are tradeoffs of public vs.
private, and of course, subscription is entirely voluntary.
Many of the owners commented that they thought a public forum was a good way
to let potential new owners get a feel for the Selenes. We're not part of a
"marketing strategy", but we're obviously proud of our boats (I'm actually
doing a second round--I have a Selene 50 and we're ordering a new 59!).
Mark Tilden
"Koinonia" Selene 50
Volunteer administrator of the Selene Owner's forum
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Scott E. Bulger
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:27 AM
To: 'Mike Sandiland'; 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Subject: Re: [PUP] The Global Adventure
Mike commented: I also once tried to join the Nordhavn
users group and was denied as I did not own one. Part of
their 'successful marketing program'? Now PAE's smile has
that dead upper lip look from too much botox to the wrinkles.
There are many important/fun/tragic/useless lessons to be
learned from each other's experience and yes, Nordhavn are
spectacular boats in my opinion.
Scott suggests: Mike, I must agree with part of your observation, but I'm
confused by the botox comment? I guess I'm just thick? Regarding the
policy of an owners only forum: I started a west coast Camano forum. When
I asked the other owners if they wanted an open or closed forum the vast
majority said they preferred a closed one. They wanted to avoid the kind of
questions you get in a general forum like "how long does a diesel engine
last". They wanted to make sure the issues were relevant to their boats,
and that's why they preferred it be closed. I can't tell you the rational
employed on the Nordhavn Owners forum, but I can tell you 95% of the
discussion is "I want to run a cable from here to there, what panel to I
have to remove?". Or, I had a breaker trip and found out the wrong breaker
was installed, better check yours", kind of things. Most of that is of no
interest to non Nordhavn owners.
Having said that, there is exchange between people like Milt Baker or Scott
Strickland that is INVALUABLE. But guess what? They post the same stuff on
PUP! Often I've seen Milts postings in both places, so we really aren't
missing anything.
A final thought because you struck a nerve in your last thought. I too
believe there are some lessons out there that the boating community has not
been able to benefit from. When the tragic accident occurred in Florida
preceding the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally there was very limited discussion of
the specifics of the accident, and how to avoid it. We did learn a boat was
hung up by the stabilizing fin and an anchor line and drifted back on a
sailboat. When the crewmember positioned herself between the two boats she
was crushed to death. A tragic, tragic accident. A Nordhavn 62 was driven
up on a beach in Mexico and a crewmember died, yet today there are no facts
associated with the accident that can be used for others to benefit from.
It's no mystery as to why, look at the recent Earthrace accident. When
property is damaged, or worse yet people are killed, there are moral,
personal and legal ramifications to the incident that have dramatic
influence on many lives. Unlike aircraft accident review boards, I don't
know that marine accidents have the same kinds of protections built in so
witnesses can put their knowledge forward without fear of reprisal or
prosecution. This practice goes back a long way when industry
representatives realized they had to protect witnesses to accidents in order
to get all the facts to make aviation safer. Additionally, a forum like
this is probably the last place you want to discuss something of such
complexity and emotion because of the difficulties in communicating by email
with so many participants. A simple statement can be interpreted so many
ways that trying to discuss anything is challenging. Heck we can't even
agree on COLREG issues, how can we discuss a complex accident? I'm being a
bit extreme in this example, but the fact does linger that there are things
that happen where good, productive discussion would be beneficial, but it's
difficult to do effectively in this medium.
In summary: The Nordhavn Owners forum isn't a branch of the Free Masons or
anything like that, and if you think about it, those members already bought
their boats, so I don't think it's part of their Marketing Plan :)
Secondly, there is real value in discussing these issues, but we have to do
it very carefully, as husbands, fathers, mothers, sisters and others
directly involved will likely read this someday. Everything should be
written realizing the person I'm discussing may have a wife or mother or
father read these comments, I better be very aware of how someone else would
interpret this comment. With that in mind I think beneficial discussion can
be conducted.
Sincerely, Scott Bulger, PUP List Admin
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
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Congrats on your new 59!!!!
I think Selen's are beautiful looking boats and I'm sure the quality
improves with every single one. It will be great to see more and more of
them out there giving their owners great joy. I think I know three couples
that have 53's on order, clearly it's a very popular boat.
Regarding the forum, kudos to you for making it open, it's a testament to
the good will of the owners and belief in the product. All good stuff!
Thanks, perhaps you can tell us some of the things that led you to choosing
a Selene? Are they stabilized? Do they even need stabilization? Thanks
for sharing with the forum!
Scott Bulger, list admin
I started a west
coast Camano forum. When
I asked the other owners if they wanted an open or
closed forum the vast majority said they
preferred a closed one.
I can't tell you the rational
employed on the Nordhavn Owners forum, but I can
tell you 95% of the discussion is "I want to
run a cable
But guess what?
They post the same stuff on
PUP!
Patrick offered a nice post about the Willard list,
and we are indeed an open list. We had a minor
discussion a few years ago about whether we should
close our membership, however it died quickly.
Personally, I'd leave the list the moment it closed.
I am steadfastly against closed lists for topics like
this. Why? Transparency. And the stench of elitist,
cliquish bavavoir is overwhelming. (Obviously, I have
very strong opinions). In 5-years and 8000 posts, WBO
rarely has an off-topic post - we've banned about 2
people, one a broker who made a ridiculous ploy to
hawk a twin diesel Egg Harbor sport fisher on the
list. We have our share of uncomfortable topics (we
love our boats despite a few common blemishes), and
there are disagreements, but it's all boat related,
and almost always Willard related.
I have seen absolutely ZERO reason to close a list to
'owners only' and a million reasons to have it open.
It helps build community, solve problems, assure
newbies have the right expectations, develop pride,
correct history, and so many other items that have
general interest.
I don't know how many of our 520+ members recieve
daily emails, how many receive daily digests, and how
many receive no contact. It's their decision what
level they participate. We have many members who join
for a while, then delete their membership because 40
emails on a single topic taxes their patience.
Even if the information is the same as is posted
elsewhere, our members are grown-ups and can decide
what's best for themselves. We're talking boats here -
not trade secrets.
It's hard not to view a closed list of this nature as
elitist. And that's just not me - I've always liked
the Groucho Marx "I'd never join a club that would
have as a member"
Peter
Willard 36 Sedan
A "Utility Trawler" for a utilitarian guy.
Scott & Group:
I come from years of owning racing and racer/cruiser sailboats. The last was
a 43' J/130 that was optimized for racing to Hawaii, which we did twice.
Our switch to the trawler was motivated primarily by the fact that for the
first time in nearly 30 years of boating, my wife enjoys being on the boat.
She never enjoyed the sailboats.
We looked at a broad variety of boats including of course the Krogen,
Nordhavn, and Selene among others. We'd come very close to closing a deal on
a Krogen NorthSea 48 when we saw the Selene 53. My wife fell in love with
the interior arrangement of the Selene 50/53, which has two large staterooms
and one smaller one and a master in the middle of the boat instead of in the
bow. I really liked the lines, the pilot berth, the engine room, the solid
construction, and the value.
I was fortunate enough when we were getting serious about a Selene to be
around when one was hauled and could get the cores from drilling thru hulls.
I hired a respected Seattle-area surveyor to look over the boat and give me
some feedback. I also visited the shipyard in China and came away convinced
of the quality of the boats. Have they had issues? Sure...that's no secret
or surprise, but they seem to be very willing to stand behind the boats and
have made great strides in producing consistent quality. So far, all of the
issues that I've heard of have been systems installation issues as compared
to hull/deck structural issues. My experience suggests that everybody has
those kinds of issues, especially since the manufacturer allows owners to do
fairly extensive customization to the basic boat, which often brings with is
unexpected impacts on systems installation.
Our Selene 50 is stabilized with Wesmar active fins. I wouldn't go anywhere
offshore in a boat the NEEDS stabilizers for safety's sake, but they are a
great way to improve the comfort of the boat and my wife LOVES them. No
trawler that I know of has the 130-degree limit of positive stability that
my J/130 had (with 8-1/2' of draft in a bulb keel), but we've had her in
10-12' swell off the west coast of Vancouver Island and I never felt in any
danger in those swells. This spring we'll be helping deliver a Selene 53
down the coast from Seattle to San Francisco, so we'll get some more time in
the big swell that is common around Cape Blanco and Cape Mendocino.
All in all, we love our Selene. We've enjoyed it so much since we took
delivery in 2004 that we decided to move up to the new Selene 59 design,
which has been extremely successful and is a great value for a boat in that
size range. Our plan is to do a circumnavigation with one or two other
friend's in their Selenes.
Mark Tilden
Selene 50 "Koinonia"
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott E. Bulger [mailto:scottebulger@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:28 PM
To: mark@mdt-consulting.com; 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Subject: RE: [PUP] The Global Adventure
Congrats on your new 59!!!!
I think Selen's are beautiful looking boats and I'm sure the quality
improves with every single one. It will be great to see more and more of
them out there giving their owners great joy. I think I know three couples
that have 53's on order, clearly it's a very popular boat.
Regarding the forum, kudos to you for making it open, it's a testament to
the good will of the owners and belief in the product. All good stuff!
Thanks, perhaps you can tell us some of the things that led you to choosing
a Selene? Are they stabilized? Do they even need stabilization? Thanks
for sharing with the forum!
Scott Bulger, list admin