>Randy's comment about buying the smallest boat makes sense but the tough question is how cheap should you go. I learned the phrase a little differently some 40 years ago in a magazine article. It was, "Buy the smallest boat you can afford." By which the author meant that for a given amount of money, the smaller the boat the newer it will be or the better shape it will be in, which often amounts to the same thing. Obviously you don't want to buy a boat that's too small for what you want to do with it, but where x-amount of money can get you a 45 foot boat in okay-but-needs-lots-of-work condition, that same x-amount of money can get you a 36 foot boat in beautiful shape. Assuming the hull and basic structure of a boat are sound, the major money-sucking problems you'll encounter on a typical fiberglass trawler will be with the systems---- engines, transmissions, pumps, electrical, electronics, plumbing, sanitation, galley, etc. All these systems are wearing out on every boat at pretty much the same rate. I've been told many times by many people in the business that the average life of a boat component--- pump, refrigerator, radio, toilet, etc.--- is ten years. Obviously this is a HUGE generalization--- things like stoves and whatnot can last decades and things like toilets can usually be rebuilt--- but you get the idea. A brand new boat is an advantage only when it's brand new. After you take delivery, the systems and system components are wearing out at the same rate as every other boat. What this means is that a brand new boat is going to cost as much to maintain and repair over the long run as an older boat. If you do not have sufficient experience and knowledge to judge a boat's true condition on your own--- and very few of us do--- a THOROUGH survey by a professional surveyor is an absolute must. Actually, two surveyors since they tend to specialize in either hull or engine surveying. I've been involved with a variety of vehicles over the years as well as airplanes, both wheel and float. But I would venture to say that there is nothing that can be as deceiving to the untrained eye as a boat. It is relatively easy to make a bad boat look good. Paint, varnish, quick-and-dirty carpentry or fiberglass repair, and a can of polish and a rag can hide staggering expensive problems. The average boat-buyer is very easy to fool. It takes a pro to see beyond the fresh paint and shine. A surveyor costs money, and a good one can cost a lot of money, but it's a pittance compared to what they can save you from spending downstream. A rule of thumb to commit to memory is that almost every estimate you get from a yard, independent shipwright, or specialty shop like engine, prop, etc. will almost always be half of what the final bill will be. This is not because all these folks are dishonest (but some of them are a bit). It's because boats have a way of developing problems that don't make themselves known until you go to fix a different problem. You haul out for bottom paint and find a rudder is loose which means the bushing needs replacing which leads to the discovery that the rudder shaft is heavily corroded which leads to...... And the final bill is twice what you thought it would be. It's not always this way, but after ten years of trawler ownership I would say it's this way more often than it's not. To answer the question of how cheap should you go you need to first take some time to do some comparison shopping. If you decide you like a particular make and model of boat look on the various internet boat sales sites and in published trade magazines to see how much this make and model of boat sells for in a variety of conditions, from "fixer-upper" to "like new." This will begin to give you a realistic idea of what a boat of this type should cost in the kind of condition you want it to be in. One note of caution---- the crappiest, navigation-hazard of a boat can be made to look terrific in photos. Back off ten or twenty feet and shoot a picture and you can't see the dry rot, the delaminating fiberglass, the cracks, the corrosion, the loose fasteners, etc. So NEVER judge the true condition of a boat by what you see in photos. Photos are helpful in determining that such and such a boat is worth finding out more about. But that's all they're good for. You should never fall in love with a specific boat based on the photos (not always easy to resist doing this, I know). Finally, a boat should never be purchased with the idea that it's an investment. Unless you buy something like a Gar Wood or Hacker runabout (the aviation equivalent is buying a P-51 or a Staggerwing Beech) a boat is a money-losing proposition. Sure, people say that they could sell their boat for more dollars than it cost new (Grand Banks are a good example of this) but when you account for the changing value of the dollar, the selling price is almost always less than the buying price. The extreme rise in fuel cost may make an exception of this rule for older, very efficient trawlers, however. I was given a piece of advice many years ago by a very successful businessman who I much admired. His advice was "never finance your toys." I realize this is one man's personal opinion, but I think it holds merit and I have adhered to it all my life. The reason I bring this up is that I suspect that the fuel situation is going to get much, much worse and it's not ever to really get any better. The best we can hope for is perhaps a degree of stabilization in a few years. So running a boat powered by diesel (or gasoline) is going to become a VERY expensive proposition in a very short period of time. To the point where it will have a huge negative effect on the value of the boat. People who don't want to pay the cost of operating a boat are going to start dumping them (this is an already-accelerating trend in our marina). So in a marine equivalent of the housing problem, it would be a bummer to finance a boat only to find that the boat had become worth less than what you owned on it, and the prospects of selling it to at least break even were zip. All that said, a boat can be a real addition to one's life experience. My wife and I do not regret buying ours despite the rapid rise in operating costs. It's always been important to approach the purchase of a boat with both eyes open, but these days I think it's become critical if you want to avoid becoming saddled with a overly expensive headache that takes all the fun out of the experience. ______________________________ C. Marin Faure GB36-403 "La Perouse" Bellingham, Washington

this is why size is not that important when it comes to boat costs... size affects dockage, bottom paint and to some extent fuel but the maintenance on all the systems will be the same. A head, water pump, steering gear, air con pump, heater, tranny, electrical panel, etc... cost abotu the same to maintain whether it's on a 36 footer or a 46 footer. engines and tranny may be a little bigger but overhaul the impact will be negligeable. Other factors like previous maintenance, original quality, etc have a much bigger impact. with some careful planning, you can often get a larger boat that's not going to cost much more to operate... pascal miami, fl 70 hatteras 53MY live cell helmcam @ www.sandbarhopper.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Faure, Marin" <marin.faure@boeing.com> To: <trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:13 PM Subject: T&T: Single Handing <><><<>><><<><< Assuming the hull and basic structure of a boat are sound, the major money-sucking problems you'll encounter on a typical fiberglass trawler will be with the systems---- engines, transmissions, pumps, electrical, electronics, plumbing, sanitation, galley, etc. All these systems are wearing out on every boat at pretty much the same rate.