Other state are also joining the suit...

http://tinyurl.com/yflk4tg

Why is there no Asian Carp "problem" in the Kentucky Lakes?  These waterways
certainly have not seen a devastating effect on their fishing industry from
the "Asian Carp Invasion."  Passing through Florence, AL on our loop in late
October a ProBass fishing tournament was recording record weights and numbers
of fish caught during their 3 day tournament.  Is the "Asian Carp Invasion"
another left wing scare tactic?  or maybe another effect of Global Warming?
Fred Clarkson

To the Moderator,

Boaters, particularly sailors and to a slightly lesser extent power boaters
are the nicest and most civilized people that one can find on the face of
this earth - certainly in the US.

Unfortunately, US society is extremely polarized and full of hatred towards
people with different political orientations. It is tearing this country
apart. We must not allow such Un-American behavior to affect us in the
boating community.

Unfortunately, a lister found it necessary to insert his political bias into
the concern expressed about the "Asian" carp by posing the cynical question
whether this is "another left wing scare tactic or maybe another effect of
global warming?

I know that you will not allow this discussion to develop into an irrational
shouting match but this particular lister ought to acknowledge that we have
seen plenty of scare tactics under an earlier Administration and that global
warming is a fact. In respect of the latter I could, off-site, describe my
experience with ice skating on the canals in the Netherlands and ski resort
development in Australia.

Currently, I'm reading again about the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.
The message is, I think, that empires decay more so because of internal
failures than external aggression. And, yes, changes in weather patterns,
caused sometimes by destructive human behavior, can lead to the collapse of
States.

Wishing all a pleasant boating season in 2010.

Anthony Van Vugt

-----Original Message-----
From: great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.comSent: Monday, December 28, 2009
10:15 AM
Subject: Re: GL: The end of the Great Loop as we know it????

Is the "Asian Carp Invasion" another left wing scare tactic? or maybe
another effect of Global Warming?
Fred Clarkson

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/great-loop

Fred Clarkson did us all a favor by posing the question, "The end of the
Great Loop as we know it?" This is a serious question that deserves a
considered reply from all that are interested in power boating, in general,
and in the Great Loop, in particular.

Fred couched the question in the rather narrow confines of, as he put it,
"The Asian Carp Problem." As some already commented, when humans tinker with
the natural ecology it usually has horrendous and irreversible consequences.
Just think about the introduction of the wild rabbit in Australia; the
mongoose into the Hawaiian Islands; the Zebra shell in the Great Lakes and a
host of other plants or animals that were deliberately or inadvertently
introduced in non-native in environments. The Asian carp is no exception.

I don't know much about the Asian Carp except that people seemed to have
coped with it fairly well in Asia. I think that it is even regarded as a
good "eating" fish. The real question here is whether the prevention of the
upstream migration of the carp is necessary at all, and officialdom thinks
that it is, and whether it can be controlled indefinitely and the signs are

• maybe not! Fred states that "there is no Asian Carp problem in the
  Kentucky Lakes." He might well be right but I red elsewhere that there
  appears to be evidence that the carp is already upstream of the barrier. But
  even if it is not, we might still be at risk. It might just take a single
  homegrown saboteur to transport a bucketful by car past de barrier and dump
  them in one of the Great Lakes. Internal terrorism of this kind is minimized
  only if there are no internal disgruntled individuals or groups that carry a
  grudge. The answers to this question have probably already have been
  addressed by those charged with the responsibility of operating the barrier
  and protecting the Great Lakes.

The general discussion of this topic should probably be conducted in a much
broader context, that is, what is the future of power boating not only on
the "Great Loop" but in the US in general? Perhaps Fred, without actually
realizing it, has raised one of the other "inconvenient" truths. Just
raising this question and worse, even attempting to answer it, might be
disagreeable to many boat owners. This is because no boater would like to
hear about the risks that the geographic scope of his hobby might be reduced
at some point of time in the future or that the value of his "investment"
might be wiped out. Those of you that might be in the "know" would have
heard already that plans were in the works to create a national registry of
all recreational boats underway. Boaters by nature like freedom to travel
and then hide in some gunk hole till they feel that it is time to travel on
again. Boaters also have a strong emotional attachment to their boats. To
them their boats have always been more than just a residential dwelling. It
is associated with many happy and sometimes anxious cruising memories.

The starting point, at least for me, in considering this question goes back
about 30 to 40 years ago when our waters were used by a great number of
house boats. These floating homes, perfect for family vacations, had
gas-powered engines. When, already then, the cost of gas went up it didn't
take long before the travelling house boats disappeared. (I've seen some
being restored of late but think that has more to do with creating
inexpensive accommodation than with cruising.)

I'm afraid that in what follows some boaters might get aggravated. The
question is whether gas-guzzling or diesel fuel devouring powerboats could
be on the way out as well. I can remember when the price of diesel was about
$1.00 per gallon then increased to the current $2.50 and the price during
the peak period when it approached $4.00 a gallon. That together with the
general decline of personal disposable income in the US might make boating
just too expensive for at least a proportion of current and potential future
power boaters. That question was addressed somewhat in a recent GL thread
that sought to establish whether the number of "Loopers" was actually
declining. I think I saw somewhere an estimate that the current annual total
of boats doing the Loop stands at around 500. That is not a large number and
would therefore have little political clout.

The downward trend in power boating is all too evident when looking at the
current boat market. For example, a Nordhavn, costing $1 million or more two
years ago, is now on the market at round about $600,000. A perfect and
fairly new Dutch steel boat, like the Linssen 42, could now be bought for
between $300 - $400k, Because I was particularly interested in the Lord
Nelson Victory Tug (LNVT) I surveyed that market. That boat, a faux tugboat,
has a lot of charm and is loved by its owners. Most of the boats date back
to the mid-80s and even only 3 years ago a well maintained boat of this
class would fetch at least $160,000. I looked from Maine to Georgia at the
LNVTs on the market. The saddening part of that market research was that
many current owners attach a sentimental value to their boats that is about
twice that what the current market would bear. Many owners got and might
still be irrationally upset when told about this discrepancy in values.

I looked also at trawlers that date back to the mid-70s to mid-80s. Several
had just completed the Loop and, in my opinion, are in good condition but
because of their age (and likely future economic developments in the US)
seem unlikely to have any resale value in, say, 4 - 5 years' time. One of
these boats is owned by a doyen of the "Looper" community. The person
concerned and the boat had a sterling reputation. Yet, the boat when
presented very poorly. It was covered by shrink wrap and apparently hastily
abandoned, with food left on the tables and diesel fuel spilled in the
bilges and just didn't sell. The owner never forgave me when I told him that
his "beloved" boat wasn't worth the $150,000 or so that he asked and that my
offer of $75k was reasonable under the circumstances. I noticed that the
boat was subsequently moved from upstate NY to a remote place in VA and now
has an asking price of about $60,000. The owner would be lucky to sell it
for $40k. Clearly, values are down because few people are buying.

Because our governments, businesses and us as households can now no longer
finance excess spending through borrowing; and our exports markets are
threatened by emerging producers like China, India and Brazil; and given the
US' vulnerability to world oil prices the longer term outlook for powerboat
owners is not bright. The prospects for the market improving in the
immediate future appear equally slim. Despite what we like to believe about
the resilience of the US economy, it is apparent now that our relentless
pursuit of globalization to open new markets worldwide for our now
discredited financial products, that contributed to the collapse of the
economy, proved to be a double-edged sword in that our manufacturing jobs
left us at an even greater rate. People in manufacturing jobs are typically
those that have the skills, patience and time to tackle the demands of
restoring a "fixer upper." These "hands-on" future boaters drove the bottom
end of the boating market thereby giving current owners the opportunity to
upgrade to larger and newer boats. Whether we like it or not, the future of
our hobby is intimately tied to our relative position in the global economy
and, of course, to the international price of fuel.

In my opinion there's only one reason that would create improvements for
recreational boaters and that is when, as in the past, governments realize
the strategic value of inland waterways for transportation. That's exactly
the reason why the ICWs were upgraded in the 1940s and at least for some
time were well maintained thereafter. Here is where the commercial water
transportation sector comes in. It's no secret that the Gulf ICW is better
maintained than the Atlantic ICW. That is because of the value of the Gulf
ICW for the transportation of strategic goods, such as, refined petroleum
products. Recreational boaters have, as far as I know, only a few allies.
These are the marine-based service industries along the major waterways and
boat owners associations, such as, BoatUS.

This brings us back to the specific question about "the end of the Great
Loop as we know (knew) it." Without wanting to seem overly pessimistic I
would guess that in the immediate future power boating will be less
concerned with long distance cruising, like doing the Great Loop (quantity),
but probably more with short range (high quality) cruising. Some boaters, of
course, will revert to or hang on a little longer to their sailboats. Those
that have completed the Loop ought to be congratulated because they might
just have made it in time.

I have tried as hard as possible to steer away from the sandbanks of
political overtones. However, I cannot see government of any political color
bending over backwards to look after the interests of the relatively small
and declining recreational boating community.

I hope that this post will stimulate a positive discussion and generate
ideas for a more creative use of powerboats in the US, in general, and on
the Great Loop, in particular.

Anthony Van Vugt
McLean, VA 22101

-----Original Message-----
From: great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Frederick
Clarkson
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 10:15 AM
To: Gene & Dee Francisco
Cc: great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: GL: The end of the Great Loop as we know it????

Why is there no Asian Carp "problem" in the Kentucky Lakes?  These waterways
certainly have not seen a devastating effect on their fishing industry from
the "Asian Carp Invasion."  Passing through Florence, AL on our loop in
late
October a ProBass fishing tournament was recording record weights and
numbers
of fish caught during their 3 day tournament.  Is the "Asian Carp Invasion"
another left wing scare tactic?  or maybe another effect of Global Warming?
Fred Clarkson