Re: [PCW] I/O new vs. old Volvo
Bob,
Thank you for your insights.
I am considering no larger than 27'. Probably, 22' to 25'.
Here is a rather broad list of elements my perceived next boat:
. Trailerable - less than 27 feet
. Less than 5000 lbs ready to go. This is not a show stopper. However,
larger will require a larger tow vehicle, and larger boat. Both
will burn more fuel.
. Pilothouse
. Easy to launch
. Sleeping for two
. Shallow draft
. 250 mile range
. Direct Drive or Outboard
. Galley up
. Stove - Diesel or Propane
. Shower
. Toilet with overboard discharge
. Heater/Air conditioner
. Open fishing area
. Accommodate lobster/crab pots
. Accommodate downriggers
. Get home sail
. Single-hand able
I am all over the map with brands, and power options. At the larger end of
the spectrum, I like the C-Dory TomCat both 24 & 25. At the smaller end of
the spectrum, I am considering the C-Dory 22 - 25' Cruisers. I realize that
all these boats utilize outboard power. Again, I know that I am all over the
map. However, I greatly enjoy reading about options on this and other
boards.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:56:05 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
Subject: Re: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 00c401c8a801$7910ffd0$1901a8c0@BobTablet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jim,
Some of the major disadvantages with outdrives are pretty much eliminated
by
trailering the boat. Corrosion and marine growth due to the outdrives
remaining submerged are eliminated. Maintenance of the lower unit is not
substantially greater than an outboard lower unit, and since you'll
routinely be trailering it you can perform that maintenance when & where
you
choose.
Outdrives do have one significant weakness the other drives don't have,
and
that's an extra change of direction for the power flow - it comes
horizontally out of the engine, makes a 90 to run vertical down the
outdrive, and then another 90 out the prop shaft. That's one more corner
than outboards or shaft drives make, and hence more opportunity for gear
failures. And to make it worse, one of those joints has to articulate for
steering and trim.
But they make up for that with several advantages. One of them is the
option for a duoprop assembly. I've heard of a few duoprop failures, but
I'm aware of many mariners running hundreds and thousands of hours with no
problems. A 15-20% efficiency improvement at today's fuel prices is
pretty
significant. At a 10 GPH burn rate with diesel at $4 per gallon (it's
nearly $5 per gallon here in Juneau, but some of that's due to our current
local power crisis - avalanche took out our hydroelectric and we're
powering
100% by diesel, 100,000 gallons per day - so demand is high right now...)
that's around $7-8 per hour, easily thousands of dollars per year. And
just
as importantly, it increases your range.
Another advantage is the ability to dynamically trim the boat. You can do
that with an outboard too. Because cats are so much more susceptible to
fore-aft trim problems, being able to adjust trim while running is more
than
a luxury.
You can run diesel with its much better efficiency. Modern gas outboards
with fuel injection and computer controls have really improved that
powerplant. But diesel technology hasn't stood still either, and the new
common rail injection diesels are far quieter, more energy efficient, and
generally more refined than their predecessors.
Weight distribution is better than outboards with the engine sitting
forward
instead of hanging aft of the transom. A large 4-stroke outboard, say a
200
hp unit, is mighty heavy way out there.
Lots of opinions and lots of opportunities for discussion on this subject,
and it's been pretty much beaten to death on other boating boards.
How big will your new boat be?
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim Garner
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:26 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
I would welcome this groups input on the advantages and disadvantages of
the
newer Volvo I/O's compared to the older models.
My first boat, 18' Owens, had a 1960 100 hp Volvo carbureted I/O. As I
recall it had wonderfully miserly fuel economy.
All this talk about DuoProps has me rethinking I/O's for my next as yet
un-finalized boat. It will be trailerable. Perhaps a Catamaran.
Some say:
More maintenance with I/O.
More complicated to get power to the prop.
More prone to sinking due to bellows.
Least expensive to replace engine alone.
The newer DuoProps are easily damaged by debris - even kelp.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 38, Issue 21
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signature
database 3057 (20080426) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Jim,
A few pieces of info might help you narrow things down.
- How fast do you wish to run? 10 kts? Or 30?
- How far would you typically tow? If it's a long distance I'd opt for
something lighter/smaller. Maybe aluminum. - What kind of waters? Where are you?
- How long will you typically be out?
- Anchoring or marinas?
- Do you need a head/shower? Or would a porta-potty do?
- What will you principally be doing?
- What else would you be carrying? Dinghy? Kayaks?
I'm not aware of any pilothouse models that small, and they'd be pretty top
heavy in ay event.
I like the C-dory. The SeaSport 24 is another excellent option. And lots
of aluminum boats to be had. You might want to see if there are any
aluminum or stitch-n-glue builders in your area - then you can customize at
will. You'll be surprised at how competitive their price will be. I'd go
outboard for sure in that size range - something like a 115 - 150 hp.
My general advice would be to go with the smaller end of the spectrum and
get a sense of how it's working. You can always upgrade, and smaller boats
are easier to sell than larger ones. Maybe go smaller and basic at first,
then have a custom built for your next one.
Hope that helps.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim Garner
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:46 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] I/O new vs. old Volvo
Bob,
Thank you for your insights.
I am considering no larger than 27'. Probably, 22' to 25'.
Here is a rather broad list of elements my perceived next boat:
. Trailerable - less than 27 feet
. Less than 5000 lbs ready to go. This is not a show stopper. However,
larger will require a larger tow vehicle, and larger boat. Both
will burn more fuel.
. Pilothouse
. Easy to launch
. Sleeping for two
. Shallow draft
. 250 mile range
. Direct Drive or Outboard
. Galley up
. Stove - Diesel or Propane
. Shower
. Toilet with overboard discharge
. Heater/Air conditioner
. Open fishing area
. Accommodate lobster/crab pots
. Accommodate downriggers
. Get home sail
. Single-hand able
I am all over the map with brands, and power options. At the larger end of
the spectrum, I like the C-Dory TomCat both 24 & 25. At the smaller end of
the spectrum, I am considering the C-Dory 22 - 25' Cruisers. I realize that
all these boats utilize outboard power. Again, I know that I am all over the
map. However, I greatly enjoy reading about options on this and other
boards.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:56:05 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
Subject: Re: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 00c401c8a801$7910ffd0$1901a8c0@BobTablet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jim,
Some of the major disadvantages with outdrives are pretty much eliminated
by
trailering the boat. Corrosion and marine growth due to the outdrives
remaining submerged are eliminated. Maintenance of the lower unit is not
substantially greater than an outboard lower unit, and since you'll
routinely be trailering it you can perform that maintenance when & where
you
choose.
Outdrives do have one significant weakness the other drives don't have,
and
that's an extra change of direction for the power flow - it comes
horizontally out of the engine, makes a 90 to run vertical down the
outdrive, and then another 90 out the prop shaft. That's one more corner
than outboards or shaft drives make, and hence more opportunity for gear
failures. And to make it worse, one of those joints has to articulate for
steering and trim.
But they make up for that with several advantages. One of them is the
option for a duoprop assembly. I've heard of a few duoprop failures, but
I'm aware of many mariners running hundreds and thousands of hours with no
problems. A 15-20% efficiency improvement at today's fuel prices is
pretty
significant. At a 10 GPH burn rate with diesel at $4 per gallon (it's
nearly $5 per gallon here in Juneau, but some of that's due to our current
local power crisis - avalanche took out our hydroelectric and we're
powering
100% by diesel, 100,000 gallons per day - so demand is high right now...)
that's around $7-8 per hour, easily thousands of dollars per year. And
just
as importantly, it increases your range.
Another advantage is the ability to dynamically trim the boat. You can do
that with an outboard too. Because cats are so much more susceptible to
fore-aft trim problems, being able to adjust trim while running is more
than
a luxury.
You can run diesel with its much better efficiency. Modern gas outboards
with fuel injection and computer controls have really improved that
powerplant. But diesel technology hasn't stood still either, and the new
common rail injection diesels are far quieter, more energy efficient, and
generally more refined than their predecessors.
Weight distribution is better than outboards with the engine sitting
forward
instead of hanging aft of the transom. A large 4-stroke outboard, say a
200
hp unit, is mighty heavy way out there.
Lots of opinions and lots of opportunities for discussion on this subject,
and it's been pretty much beaten to death on other boating boards.
How big will your new boat be?
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim Garner
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:26 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
I would welcome this groups input on the advantages and disadvantages of
the
newer Volvo I/O's compared to the older models.
My first boat, 18' Owens, had a 1960 100 hp Volvo carbureted I/O. As I
recall it had wonderfully miserly fuel economy.
All this talk about DuoProps has me rethinking I/O's for my next as yet
un-finalized boat. It will be trailerable. Perhaps a Catamaran.
Some say:
More maintenance with I/O.
More complicated to get power to the prop.
More prone to sinking due to bellows.
Least expensive to replace engine alone.
The newer DuoProps are easily damaged by debris - even kelp.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 38, Issue 21
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3057 (20080426) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
We looked at some boats this weekend and were impressed by the Arime line,
which featured a very smart designed 22 footer pilothouse model.
Go to EQ Marine and e-mail Les Lampman. He's terrific....knows boats and is
honest as the day is long. The web page is full of very interesting articles
he's written.
-Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Deering
To: 'Power Catamaran List'
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] I/O new vs. old Volvo
Jim,
A few pieces of info might help you narrow things down.
- How fast do you wish to run? 10 kts? Or 30?
- How far would you typically tow? If it's a long distance I'd opt for
something lighter/smaller. Maybe aluminum. - What kind of waters? Where are you?
- How long will you typically be out?
- Anchoring or marinas?
- Do you need a head/shower? Or would a porta-potty do?
- What will you principally be doing?
- What else would you be carrying? Dinghy? Kayaks?
I'm not aware of any pilothouse models that small, and they'd be pretty top
heavy in ay event.
I like the C-dory. The SeaSport 24 is another excellent option. And lots
of aluminum boats to be had. You might want to see if there are any
aluminum or stitch-n-glue builders in your area - then you can customize at
will. You'll be surprised at how competitive their price will be. I'd go
outboard for sure in that size range - something like a 115 - 150 hp.
My general advice would be to go with the smaller end of the spectrum and
get a sense of how it's working. You can always upgrade, and smaller boats
are easier to sell than larger ones. Maybe go smaller and basic at first,
then have a custom built for your next one.
Hope that helps.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim Garner
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:46 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] I/O new vs. old Volvo
Bob,
Thank you for your insights.
I am considering no larger than 27'. Probably, 22' to 25'.
Here is a rather broad list of elements my perceived next boat:
. Trailerable - less than 27 feet
. Less than 5000 lbs ready to go. This is not a show stopper. However,
larger will require a larger tow vehicle, and larger boat. Both
will burn more fuel.
. Pilothouse
. Easy to launch
. Sleeping for two
. Shallow draft
. 250 mile range
. Direct Drive or Outboard
. Galley up
. Stove - Diesel or Propane
. Shower
. Toilet with overboard discharge
. Heater/Air conditioner
. Open fishing area
. Accommodate lobster/crab pots
. Accommodate downriggers
. Get home sail
. Single-hand able
I am all over the map with brands, and power options. At the larger end of
the spectrum, I like the C-Dory TomCat both 24 & 25. At the smaller end of
the spectrum, I am considering the C-Dory 22 - 25' Cruisers. I realize that
all these boats utilize outboard power. Again, I know that I am all over
the
map. However, I greatly enjoy reading about options on this and other
boards.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:56:05 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
Subject: Re: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 00c401c8a801$7910ffd0$1901a8c0@BobTablet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jim,
Some of the major disadvantages with outdrives are pretty much eliminated
by
trailering the boat. Corrosion and marine growth due to the outdrives
remaining submerged are eliminated. Maintenance of the lower unit is not
substantially greater than an outboard lower unit, and since you'll
routinely be trailering it you can perform that maintenance when & where
you
choose.
Outdrives do have one significant weakness the other drives don't have,
and
that's an extra change of direction for the power flow - it comes
horizontally out of the engine, makes a 90 to run vertical down the
outdrive, and then another 90 out the prop shaft. That's one more corner
than outboards or shaft drives make, and hence more opportunity for gear
failures. And to make it worse, one of those joints has to articulate
for
steering and trim.
But they make up for that with several advantages. One of them is the
option for a duoprop assembly. I've heard of a few duoprop failures, but
I'm aware of many mariners running hundreds and thousands of hours with
no
problems. A 15-20% efficiency improvement at today's fuel prices is
pretty
significant. At a 10 GPH burn rate with diesel at $4 per gallon (it's
nearly $5 per gallon here in Juneau, but some of that's due to our
current
local power crisis - avalanche took out our hydroelectric and we're
powering
100% by diesel, 100,000 gallons per day - so demand is high right now...)
that's around $7-8 per hour, easily thousands of dollars per year. And
just
as importantly, it increases your range.
Another advantage is the ability to dynamically trim the boat. You can
do
that with an outboard too. Because cats are so much more susceptible to
fore-aft trim problems, being able to adjust trim while running is more
than
a luxury.
You can run diesel with its much better efficiency. Modern gas outboards
with fuel injection and computer controls have really improved that
powerplant. But diesel technology hasn't stood still either, and the new
common rail injection diesels are far quieter, more energy efficient, and
generally more refined than their predecessors.
Weight distribution is better than outboards with the engine sitting
forward
instead of hanging aft of the transom. A large 4-stroke outboard, say a
200
hp unit, is mighty heavy way out there.
Lots of opinions and lots of opportunities for discussion on this
subject,
and it's been pretty much beaten to death on other boating boards.
How big will your new boat be?
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Garner
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:26 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Inboard Outboard never Volvo vs. Older Volvo
I would welcome this groups input on the advantages and disadvantages of
the
newer Volvo I/O's compared to the older models.
My first boat, 18' Owens, had a 1960 100 hp Volvo carbureted I/O. As I
recall it had wonderfully miserly fuel economy.
All this talk about DuoProps has me rethinking I/O's for my next as yet
un-finalized boat. It will be trailerable. Perhaps a Catamaran.
Some say:
More maintenance with I/O.
More complicated to get power to the prop.
More prone to sinking due to bellows.
Least expensive to replace engine alone.
The newer DuoProps are easily damaged by debris - even kelp.
Regards,
Jim Garner
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 38, Issue 21
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3057 (20080426) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Here's the URL for E Q Marine.
** D C "Mac" Macdonald **
- m/v Another Adventure *
** '95 Carver 355 ACMY ** - Grand Lake - Oklahoma *
** AGLCA (#217) & USPS **
** K2GKK, USAF-Retired **
From: dene@ipns.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:50:08 -0700
Subject: Re: [PCW] I/O new vs. old Volvo
We looked at some boats this weekend and were impressed by the Arime line,
which featured a very smart designed 22 footer pilothouse model.
Go to EQ Marine and e-mail Les Lampman. He's terrific....knows boats and is
honest as the day is long. The web page is full of very interesting
articles
he's written.
-Greg