Hi Jeroen, Looks like a nice improvement. It deals mainly with the errors in the phase detector itself. The circuit still needs a 50% duty cycle squarewave logic level input. The problem of converting from a lower level sinewave input remanains. Using a differential line receiver IC with a transformer coupled input followed by a divide by 2 looks like the best bet. The Low Voltage Differential Signalling (LVDS) systems that are coming into use have spawned a range of high performance IC's. I've just got hold of some SN65LVDS048A quad receivers. Designed for 200MHz and with 50ps channel to channel skew on a 2.7ns propagation delay, these should perform well. I've just got to do some testing. Need more time..... Robert G8RPI. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeroen Bastemeijer Sent: 07 December 2005 09:52 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for an HP K34-59991A Linear Phase Comparator Dear All, I checked the patentsdatabase, there is another patent form Michael Fischer (US6,351,153) which claims to be less sensitive to temperature and supply voltage fluctuations. Interesting to read. Furthermore, when designing electronics, I always keep in mind the KISS-principle (Keep It Stupidly Simple). With carefull simple design, al lot of effects can be neglected or compensated for. More (expensive) electronics, doesn't mean a much better design. Usuallly more electronics invite noise and temperature influence instead of cancelling... Jeroen PE1RGE Robert Atkinson wrote: >Hi, >I've looked at building one of these and it's not quite so trivial to >duplicate. The speed of the logic is important, the original design used >ECL. High speed CMOS may be OK but how do you verify performance? The >original also used an unusual input circuit designed around a >discontinued line receiver IC. This is critical to performance, any >variation in threshold will appear as a phase error. I'm continuing to >prototype a new design and will let you know how I get on. >I've got a manual on PDF if you need it. > >Robert G8RPI. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On >Behalf Of Rick Karlquist >Sent: 06 December 2005 19:35 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Cc: time-nuts@febo.com >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for an HP K34-59991A Linear Phase >Comparator > >It is trivial to build your own out of a couple of flip flops. >You can read Michael Fischer's patent on it (circa 1980). > >Rick Karlquist N6RK > > >NE8S wrote: > > >>Gentlemen: >> >>Happy Holidays to All Time, Frequency, and Phase Domainers. >> >>I am looking for an HP Linear Phase Comparator, Model K34-59991A. Does >>anyone have one to sell??? >> >>Thanks in advance for checking and passing the word for me. >> >>Gar Ko >>NE8S >> >>Email Addresses: >> >>bionucleonics@southwind.net >>ne8s@earthlink.net >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list >>time-nuts@febo.com >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list >time-nuts@febo.com >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and not necessarily Genetix Ltd (Genetix) or any company associated with it. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify Genetix by telephone on +44 (0)1425 624600. > > >The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving the Genetix network. Genetix will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages as a result of any virus being passed on, or arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list >time-nuts@febo.com >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > -- Ing. Jeroen Bastemeijer Delft University of Technology Department of Electrical Engineering Electronic Instrumentation Laboratory Mekelweg 4, Room 13.090 2628 CD Delft The Netherlands Phone: +31.15.27.86542 Fax: +31.15.27.85755 E-mail: J.Bastemeijer@EWI.TUDelft.nl _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and not necessarily Genetix Ltd (Genetix) or any company associated with it. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify Genetix by telephone on +44 (0)1425 624600. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving the Genetix network. Genetix will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages as a result of any virus being passed on, or arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party.

Hi Robert, It is an interesting problem. I have been looking in it for some time as well. Planned to build such a phase-comparator myself.... no real schematics yet, due to a lack of time :-( (or maybe too many interests....) To get a nice 50% duty cycle, you need more than just a D-Flip-Flop... Probably you already figured that out. You need to synchronise the 50% pulses with either the positive or the negative edge of your incoming original signal. This would mean, that your frequency is at least divided by a factor 4. For the analog part: You could consider using a limiter-like circuit, like the ones which are used in FM-detector IC's. The input signal will be amplified till it clips. The only interesting parameter is the zero-crossing, which could be detected by a comparator. (Compare the signal to ground). However, a slightly distorted (or noisy) sine wave will produce an error as well... A distortion/noise in your inputsignal will always distort your measurement. This makes me wonder if it really pays off to use very fast/high-grade components. Did you do any calculations to estimate the phase error (not the constant one), which will be introduced by certain components? A general question: what kind of signals do you want to compare/measure the phase? 10 MHz, 10 kHz, 1 pps, .....???? Square, sine-wave??? Best regards, Jeroen PE1RGE Robert Atkinson wrote: >Hi Jeroen, >Looks like a nice improvement. It deals mainly with the errors in the >phase detector itself. The circuit still needs a 50% duty cycle >squarewave logic level input. The problem of converting from a lower >level sinewave input remanains. Using a differential line receiver IC >with a transformer coupled input followed by a divide by 2 looks like >the best bet. The Low Voltage Differential Signalling (LVDS) systems >that are coming into use have spawned a range of high performance IC's. >I've just got hold of some SN65LVDS048A quad receivers. Designed for >200MHz and with 50ps channel to channel skew on a 2.7ns propagation >delay, these should perform well. I've just got to do some testing. Need >more time..... > >Robert G8RPI. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On >Behalf Of Jeroen Bastemeijer >Sent: 07 December 2005 09:52 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for an HP K34-59991A Linear Phase >Comparator > >Dear All, > >I checked the patentsdatabase, there is another patent form Michael >Fischer (US6,351,153) which claims to be less sensitive to temperature >and supply voltage fluctuations. Interesting to read. >Furthermore, when designing electronics, I always keep in mind the >KISS-principle (Keep It Stupidly Simple). With carefull simple design, >al lot of effects can be neglected or compensated for. More (expensive) >electronics, doesn't mean a much better design. Usuallly more >electronics invite noise and temperature influence instead of >cancelling... > >Jeroen PE1RGE > >Robert Atkinson wrote: > > > >>Hi, >>I've looked at building one of these and it's not quite so trivial to >>duplicate. The speed of the logic is important, the original design >> >> >used > > >>ECL. High speed CMOS may be OK but how do you verify performance? The >>original also used an unusual input circuit designed around a >>discontinued line receiver IC. This is critical to performance, any >>variation in threshold will appear as a phase error. I'm continuing to >>prototype a new design and will let you know how I get on. >>I've got a manual on PDF if you need it. >> >>Robert G8RPI. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On >>Behalf Of Rick Karlquist >>Sent: 06 December 2005 19:35 >>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>Cc: time-nuts@febo.com >>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for an HP K34-59991A Linear Phase >>Comparator >> >>It is trivial to build your own out of a couple of flip flops. >>You can read Michael Fischer's patent on it (circa 1980). >> >>Rick Karlquist N6RK >> >> >>NE8S wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>Gentlemen: >>> >>>Happy Holidays to All Time, Frequency, and Phase Domainers. >>> >>>I am looking for an HP Linear Phase Comparator, Model K34-59991A. Does >>>anyone have one to sell??? >>> >>>Thanks in advance for checking and passing the word for me. >>> >>>Gar Ko >>>NE8S >>> >>>Email Addresses: >>> >>>bionucleonics@southwind.net >>>ne8s@earthlink.net >>>_______________________________________________ >>>time-nuts mailing list >>>time-nuts@febo.com >>>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list >>time-nuts@febo.com >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >>Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and >> >> >not necessarily Genetix Ltd (Genetix) or any company associated with it. >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and solely >for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended >recipient or the person responsible for delivering to the intended >recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and >that any use is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in >error please notify Genetix by telephone on +44 (0)1425 624600. > > >>The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message >> >> >is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned >for viruses prior to leaving the Genetix network. Genetix will not be >liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages as a >result of any virus being passed on, or arising from alteration of the >contents of this message by a third party. > > >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >- > > >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list >>time-nuts@febo.com >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> >> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list >time-nuts@febo.com >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > -- Ing. Jeroen Bastemeijer Delft University of Technology Department of Electrical Engineering Electronic Instrumentation Laboratory Mekelweg 4, Room 13.090 2628 CD Delft The Netherlands Phone: +31.15.27.86542 Fax: +31.15.27.85755 E-mail: J.Bastemeijer@EWI.TUDelft.nl