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Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

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Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51

LB
Leo Bodnar
Mon, Apr 8, 2019 4:57 PM

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile memory that you can update.
In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing or, most often, firmware compilation date.
This is the simplest strategy - one that provides 20 years of device lifespan.  "Device" in this case can be anything, including a single chip module that only has mask ROM and 128bytes of OTP memory like most Ublox modules.

If you have NVRAM, you can store last seen full week number periodically.  Unless you don't power up the device for 20 years since last update you should be fine too.

Of course, if you have the ability to decode CNAV messages you can kick the can much further down the road.
Leo

From: Joe Leikhim jleikhim@leikhim.com
My question is this. Why would the receivers be hard coded to a start date for the 1023 week register?
Why doesn't the receiver restart that date whenever reset or turned on after a period of time?
It seems like faulty logic to build in a defect like this.

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile memory that you can update. In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing or, most often, firmware compilation date. This is the simplest strategy - one that provides 20 years of device lifespan. "Device" in this case can be anything, including a single chip module that only has mask ROM and 128bytes of OTP memory like most Ublox modules. If you have NVRAM, you can store last seen full week number periodically. Unless you don't power up the device for 20 years since last update you should be fine too. Of course, if you have the ability to decode CNAV messages you can kick the can much further down the road. Leo > From: Joe Leikhim <jleikhim@leikhim.com> > My question is this. Why would the receivers be hard coded to a start date for the 1023 week register? > Why doesn't the receiver restart that date whenever reset or turned on after a period of time? > It seems like faulty logic to build in a defect like this.
TF
Tony Finch
Tue, Apr 9, 2019 11:08 AM

Leo Bodnar leo@leobodnar.com wrote:

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile
memory that you can update.

In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is
that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing
or, most often, firmware compilation date.

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in
south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at
first.

Leo Bodnar <leo@leobodnar.com> wrote: > Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile > memory that you can update. > In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is > that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing > or, most often, firmware compilation date. There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at first.
TV
Tom Van Baak
Tue, Apr 9, 2019 12:43 PM

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here:

http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in:

http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/
http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Finch" dot@dotat.at
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51

Leo Bodnar leo@leobodnar.com wrote:

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile
memory that you can update.

In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is
that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing
or, most often, firmware compilation date.

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in
south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at
first.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

> There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here: http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in: http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/ http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/ /tvb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Finch" <dot@dotat.at> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51 > Leo Bodnar <leo@leobodnar.com> wrote: > >> Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile >> memory that you can update. > >> In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is >> that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing >> or, most often, firmware compilation date. > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. > > Tony. > -- > f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ > Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in > south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at > first. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.
FC
Forrest Christian (List Account)
Wed, Apr 10, 2019 5:49 AM

I realize that this doesn't help old receivers, but I'm sort of
surprised that this wasn't addressed as the GPS system has had various
additions made to it such as WAAS.  Even 3-4 bits allocated to this
purpose in one of the datastreams would move us out beyond any
reasonable expectation of the life of the current GPS protocol.

Does anyone know if any of the global GNSS alternatives (aka GLONASS,
etc.) have similar limitations?

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:01 AM Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here:

http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in:

http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/
http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Finch" dot@dotat.at
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51

Leo Bodnar leo@leobodnar.com wrote:

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile
memory that you can update.

In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is
that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing
or, most often, firmware compilation date.

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in
south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at
first.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.


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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

--

  • Forrest
I realize that this doesn't help old receivers, but I'm sort of surprised that this wasn't addressed as the GPS system has had various additions made to it such as WAAS. Even 3-4 bits allocated to this purpose in one of the datastreams would move us out beyond any reasonable expectation of the life of the current GPS protocol. Does anyone know if any of the global GNSS alternatives (aka GLONASS, etc.) have similar limitations? On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:01 AM Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. > > The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here: > > http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm > > But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in: > > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/ > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/ > > /tvb > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Finch" <dot@dotat.at> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51 > > > > Leo Bodnar <leo@leobodnar.com> wrote: > > > >> Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile > >> memory that you can update. > > > >> In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is > >> that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing > >> or, most often, firmware compilation date. > > > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. > > > > Tony. > > -- > > f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ > > Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in > > south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at > > first. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. -- - Forrest
TF
Tony Finch
Wed, Apr 10, 2019 10:55 AM

Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com wrote:

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count!

The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it.
Details here:

http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

Oh, wonderful :-)

But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict
20, 40, or 60 years into the future.

I was thinking in terms of getting a bit more lifetime than 20 years from
the firmware compilation date, but as you say it isn't reliable enough to
get much more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Biscay: Northerly 3 or 4, occasionally 5 in east. Moderate. Showers, thundery
at first in south. Good, occasionally poor until later.

Tom Van Baak <tvb@LeapSecond.com> wrote: > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > > second count! > > The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. > Details here: > > http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm Oh, wonderful :-) > But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict > 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. I was thinking in terms of getting a bit more lifetime than 20 years from the firmware compilation date, but as you say it isn't reliable enough to get much more than 20 years. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Biscay: Northerly 3 or 4, occasionally 5 in east. Moderate. Showers, thundery at first in south. Good, occasionally poor until later.
BK
Bob kb8tq
Wed, Apr 10, 2019 2:01 PM

Hi

The “fix” for this (adding 3 more bits) was worked out and announced back in 2004. The new
generation of sats will be transmitting a longer week number. The gotcha is that the old sats
are still up there doing their thing. They are built in a way that you can’t just shoot a firmware
patch into space and add more bits to the transmitted message.

The original plan was that the new message would be on the air well before the rollover event
that just happened. Even then, there was some debate about how many devices would be able
to use the “new” message. The whole implement / debug / deploy / patch cycle is not something
that happens overnight.

On all of our older gear, there pretty much are no patches for any of this. Doing a patch that
resets the magic “built on” date is pretty trivial compared to doing more bits in the message.
We don’t even have simple patches for this gear …..

Bob

On Apr 10, 2019, at 1:49 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) lists@packetflux.com wrote:

I realize that this doesn't help old receivers, but I'm sort of
surprised that this wasn't addressed as the GPS system has had various
additions made to it such as WAAS.  Even 3-4 bits allocated to this
purpose in one of the datastreams would move us out beyond any
reasonable expectation of the life of the current GPS protocol.

Does anyone know if any of the global GNSS alternatives (aka GLONASS,
etc.) have similar limitations?

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:01 AM Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here:

http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in:

http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/
http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Finch" dot@dotat.at
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51

Leo Bodnar leo@leobodnar.com wrote:

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile
memory that you can update.

In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is
that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing
or, most often, firmware compilation date.

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in
south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at
first.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.


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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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--

  • Forrest

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Hi The “fix” for this (adding 3 more bits) was worked out and announced back in 2004. The new generation of sats will be transmitting a longer week number. The gotcha is that the old sats are still up there doing their thing. They are built in a way that you can’t just shoot a firmware patch into space and add more bits to the transmitted message. The original plan was that the new message would be on the air well before the rollover event that just happened. Even then, there was some debate about how many devices would be able to use the “new” message. The whole implement / debug / deploy / patch cycle is not something that happens overnight. On all of our older gear, there pretty much are no patches for any of this. Doing a patch that resets the magic “built on” date is pretty trivial compared to doing more bits in the message. We don’t even have simple patches for this gear ….. Bob > On Apr 10, 2019, at 1:49 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <lists@packetflux.com> wrote: > > I realize that this doesn't help old receivers, but I'm sort of > surprised that this wasn't addressed as the GPS system has had various > additions made to it such as WAAS. Even 3-4 bits allocated to this > purpose in one of the datastreams would move us out beyond any > reasonable expectation of the life of the current GPS protocol. > > Does anyone know if any of the global GNSS alternatives (aka GLONASS, > etc.) have similar limitations? > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:01 AM Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: >> >>> There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap >>> second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second >>> count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the >>> leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge >>> factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. >> >> The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. Details here: >> >> http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm >> >> But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol Design in: >> >> http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/ >> http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/ >> >> /tvb >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tony Finch" <dot@dotat.at> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51 >> >> >>> Leo Bodnar <leo@leobodnar.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile >>>> memory that you can update. >>> >>>> In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is >>>> that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing >>>> or, most often, firmware compilation date. >>> >>> There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap >>> second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second >>> count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the >>> leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge >>> factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. >>> >>> Tony. >>> -- >>> f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ >>> Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 in >>> south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate at >>> first. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > -- > - Forrest > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.
AG
Adrian Godwin
Thu, Apr 11, 2019 6:56 AM

The references I found in those archived postings explain that the problem
was that the GPS receiver had been 'fixed' in 2011 but that the fix only
worked until 2015. The solution was to replace the receiver.

I wasn't able to find any discussion of why the fix lasted such a short
time, but it seems far too short to be due to variation in the rate of leap
second insertions.

Assuming that the reason for that algorithm's failure is correct though, it
implies that leap second insertion rate might vary by at least 13
insertions in 20 years in order that an estimate of week counter cycles
produced from leap second count would be wrong.

This carries a further implication that the 7 bit count of leap seconds
will last not for 175 years but half that or perhaps worse. Or, if the
problem is with a lower than assumed rate of insertions, better.

How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there?

On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 14:01 Tom Van Baak, tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it.
Details here:

http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict
20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver
failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with
subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol
Design in:

http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/
http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/

/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Finch" dot@dotat.at
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51

Leo Bodnar leo@leobodnar.com wrote:

Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile
memory that you can update.

In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is
that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing
or, most often, firmware compilation date.

There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap
second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second
count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the
leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge
factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years.

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7

in

south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate

at

first.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to

and follow the instructions there.


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The references I found in those archived postings explain that the problem was that the GPS receiver had been 'fixed' in 2011 but that the fix only worked until 2015. The solution was to replace the receiver. I wasn't able to find any discussion of why the fix lasted such a short time, but it seems far too short to be due to variation in the rate of leap second insertions. Assuming that the reason for that algorithm's failure is correct though, it implies that leap second insertion rate might vary by at least 13 insertions in 20 years in order that an estimate of week counter cycles produced from leap second count would be wrong. This carries a further implication that the 7 bit count of leap seconds will last not for 175 years but half that or perhaps worse. Or, if the problem is with a lower than assumed rate of insertions, better. How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there? On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 14:01 Tom Van Baak, <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. > > The idea was proposed 20+ years ago, Trimble even has a patent on it. > Details here: > > http://leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm > > But it turns out not to work. Earth rotation is too difficult to predict > 20, 40, or 60 years into the future. There was talk that the GPS receiver > failures in 2015 were related to this algorithm. Look for any threads with > subjects like: TS2100, TymServe 2100, 1995 rollover, Trimble ACE, Heol > Design in: > > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-May/ > http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2015-June/ > > /tvb > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Finch" <dot@dotat.at> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 4:08 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Garmin GPS12XL V3.51 > > > > Leo Bodnar <leo@leobodnar.com> wrote: > > > >> Assume that the device does not have any reliable long term non-volatile > >> memory that you can update. > > > >> In the absence of any clues your only reliable piece of knowledge is > >> that the cold start date is somewhere after the date of manufacturing > >> or, most often, firmware compilation date. > > > > There's another relatively simple clue in the old GPS signal: the leap > > second count! A device manufacturer could teach it what the leap second > > count was at manufacturing time, and how to predict a lower bound on the > > leap second count in the future (with a suitable safety margin / fudge > > factor) which should allow it to live a bit more than 20 years. > > > > Tony. > > -- > > f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ > > Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 > in > > south. Moderate. Showers at first in south. Good, occasionally moderate > at > > first. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
TF
Tony Finch
Thu, Apr 11, 2019 12:46 PM

Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:

How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there?

1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17
1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16
1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16
1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16
1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15
1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15
1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15
1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14
1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14
1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13
1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12
1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11
1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10
1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10
1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 :  9
1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10
1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10
1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 :  9
1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10
1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 :  9
1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 :  8
1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 :  8
1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 :  7
1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 :  6
1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 :  7
1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 :  6
1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 :  6
1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 :  6
2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 :  6

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east,
moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in north.
In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good.

Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > > How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there? 1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17 1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16 1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16 1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16 1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15 1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15 1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15 1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14 1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14 1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13 1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12 1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11 1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10 1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10 1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 : 9 1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10 1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10 1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 : 9 1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10 1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 : 9 1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 : 8 1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 : 8 1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 : 7 1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 : 6 1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 : 7 1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 : 6 1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 : 6 1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 : 6 2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 : 6 Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east, moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in north. In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good.
AG
Adrian Godwin
Thu, Apr 11, 2019 5:53 PM

Thanks. So the current estimate of 13 is towards the high end and variation
is large enough that 40 years with might be sufficiently low that only 1
rollover is assumed. Not likely to overflow the leap second count early
either.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Tony Finch dot@dotat.at wrote:

Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:

How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there?

1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17
1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16
1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16
1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16
1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15
1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15
1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15
1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14
1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14
1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13
1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12
1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11
1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10
1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10
1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 :  9
1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10
1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10
1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 :  9
1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10
1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 :  9
1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 :  8
1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 :  8
1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 :  7
1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 :  6
1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 :  7
1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 :  6
1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 :  6
1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 :  6
2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 :  6

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east,
moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in
north.
In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good.


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Thanks. So the current estimate of 13 is towards the high end and variation is large enough that 40 years with might be sufficiently low that only 1 rollover is assumed. Not likely to overflow the leap second count early either. On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote: > Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there? > > 1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17 > 1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16 > 1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16 > 1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16 > 1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15 > 1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15 > 1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15 > 1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14 > 1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14 > 1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13 > 1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12 > 1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11 > 1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10 > 1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10 > 1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 : 9 > 1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10 > 1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10 > 1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 : 9 > 1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10 > 1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 : 9 > 1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 : 8 > 1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 : 8 > 1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 : 7 > 1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 : 6 > 1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 : 7 > 1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 : 6 > 1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 : 6 > 1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 : 6 > 2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 : 6 > > Tony. > -- > f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ > Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east, > moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in > north. > In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
TS
Tim Shoppa
Thu, Apr 11, 2019 7:40 PM

Beyond the predictability of physical variation, there is also the unknown
probability of a human decision to abolish leap seconds, while also
continuing to satisfy the various legal requirements around the world that
civil time be tied to the Sun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second#Proposal_to_abolish_leap_seconds

Tim N3QE

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks. So the current estimate of 13 is towards the high end and variation
is large enough that 40 years with might be sufficiently low that only 1
rollover is assumed. Not likely to overflow the leap second count early
either.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Tony Finch dot@dotat.at wrote:

Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:

How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there?

1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17
1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16
1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16
1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16
1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15
1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15
1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15
1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14
1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14
1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13
1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12
1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11
1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10
1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10
1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 :  9
1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10
1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10
1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 :  9
1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10
1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 :  9
1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 :  8
1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 :  8
1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 :  7
1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 :  6
1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 :  7
1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 :  6
1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 :  6
1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 :  6
2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 :  6

Tony.

f.anthony.n.finch  dot@dotat.at  http://dotat.at/
Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east,
moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in
north.
In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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Beyond the predictability of physical variation, there is also the unknown probability of a human decision to abolish leap seconds, while also continuing to satisfy the various legal requirements around the world that civil time be tied to the Sun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second#Proposal_to_abolish_leap_seconds Tim N3QE On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks. So the current estimate of 13 is towards the high end and variation > is large enough that 40 years with might be sufficiently low that only 1 > rollover is assumed. Not likely to overflow the leap second count early > either. > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:01 PM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote: > > > Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > How much variation in the rate of leap second insertion is there? > > > > 1972-01-01 - 1992-01-01 : 17 > > 1973-01-01 - 1993-01-01 : 16 > > 1974-01-01 - 1994-01-01 : 16 > > 1975-01-01 - 1995-01-01 : 16 > > 1976-01-01 - 1996-01-01 : 15 > > 1977-01-01 - 1997-01-01 : 15 > > 1978-01-01 - 1998-01-01 : 15 > > 1979-01-01 - 1999-01-01 : 14 > > 1980-01-01 - 2000-01-01 : 14 > > 1981-01-01 - 2001-01-01 : 13 > > 1982-01-01 - 2002-01-01 : 12 > > 1983-01-01 - 2003-01-01 : 11 > > 1984-01-01 - 2004-01-01 : 10 > > 1985-01-01 - 2005-01-01 : 10 > > 1986-01-01 - 2006-01-01 : 9 > > 1987-01-01 - 2007-01-01 : 10 > > 1988-01-01 - 2008-01-01 : 10 > > 1989-01-01 - 2009-01-01 : 9 > > 1990-01-01 - 2010-01-01 : 10 > > 1991-01-01 - 2011-01-01 : 9 > > 1992-01-01 - 2012-01-01 : 8 > > 1993-01-01 - 2013-01-01 : 8 > > 1994-01-01 - 2014-01-01 : 7 > > 1995-01-01 - 2015-01-01 : 6 > > 1996-01-01 - 2016-01-01 : 7 > > 1997-01-01 - 2017-01-01 : 6 > > 1998-01-01 - 2018-01-01 : 6 > > 1999-01-01 - 2019-01-01 : 6 > > 2000-01-01 - 2020-01-01 : 6 > > > > Tony. > > -- > > f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ > > Trafalgar: In east, northerly 5 or 6. In west, variable 3 or 4. In east, > > moderate, occasionally rough. in west, moderate, occasionally rough in > > north. > > In east, fair. In west, mainly fair. In east, good. In west, good. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >