Hybrid powercats
Kites, diesel electric, retractable drive units? Why? The circle is spiraling,
none of these alternatives are going to be able to cruise in the teens or
twenties, so they are as I see it, sailcat alternatives. Why not just go to a
sailcat? A well designed and built 45 ft sailcat, can motor at 10 knots and
burn a couple of gallons an hour, and sail in the teens. Too hard? Set it up
with a freestanding mast, a single electric winch to run everything,
self-tacking jib, and a nine year old child could sail it. Too wide? shorten
the rig, narrow the beam and it will still blow away any kite rig. Frankly
there is nothing more efficient on the water than a well designed sailing cat
hull form. The cost difference of the diesel hybrid's that are out there
Glacier, Solomon, compared to conventional small diesels and a generator,
would pay for five or more years of diesel fuel, the systems are complicated,
vunerable to lightning hits, and in most cases heavier, all the while the
diesel engines are just getting better and better (common rail, electronic)
etc. Worried about cost? Buy a used 40 ft. sailing cat for 250-275k, don't
want to sail?, Pull the rig out of it, add slightly bigger diesels (50-75 hp)
add a wedge or trim tab to the transom and cruise 10-12 knots and burn three
gallons per hour.
I have thought about this for some time, as another advantage is that
you virtually get a home by the sea with this solution. I have always
had only two doubts: seaworthiness in something like a force 10, and
13 metres waves like those off Ireland about a month ago, and getting
out in the event of a capsize (is an escape hatch viable and necessary).
Don't want to statr a hullabuloo, but if anyone wants to take up
these points.
Thanks for the interesting post,
Rupert.
On 16 Dec 2007, at 14:05, Pat Reischmann wrote:
Kites, diesel electric, retractable drive units? Why? The circle is
spiraling,
none of these alternatives are going to be able to cruise in the
teens or
twenties, so they are as I see it, sailcat alternatives. Why not
just go to a
sailcat? A well designed and built 45 ft sailcat, can motor at 10
knots and
burn a couple of gallons an hour, and sail in the teens. Too hard?
Set it up
with a freestanding mast, a single electric winch to run everything,
self-tacking jib, and a nine year old child could sail it. Too
wide? shorten
the rig, narrow the beam and it will still blow away any kite rig.
Frankly
there is nothing more efficient on the water than a well designed
sailing cat
hull form. The cost difference of the diesel hybrid's that are out
there
Glacier, Solomon, compared to conventional small diesels and a
generator,
would pay for five or more years of diesel fuel, the systems are
complicated,
vunerable to lightning hits, and in most cases heavier, all the
while the
diesel engines are just getting better and better (common rail,
electronic)
etc. Worried about cost? Buy a used 40 ft. sailing cat for
250-275k, don't
want to sail?, Pull the rig out of it, add slightly bigger diesels
(50-75 hp)
add a wedge or trim tab to the transom and cruise 10-12 knots and
burn three
gallons per hour.
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Oh, I forgot. Much of the discussion is hypethical as no one is his
right mind should out in such weather, but accidents and loony-
behaviour do happen.
Rupert.
On 16 Dec 2007, at 14:05, Pat Reischmann wrote:
Kites, diesel electric, retractable drive units? Why? The circle is
spiraling,
none of these alternatives are going to be able to cruise in the
teens or
twenties, so they are as I see it, sailcat alternatives. Why not
just go to a
sailcat? A well designed and built 45 ft sailcat, can motor at 10
knots and
burn a couple of gallons an hour, and sail in the teens. Too hard?
Set it up
with a freestanding mast, a single electric winch to run everything,
self-tacking jib, and a nine year old child could sail it. Too
wide? shorten
the rig, narrow the beam and it will still blow away any kite rig.
Frankly
there is nothing more efficient on the water than a well designed
sailing cat
hull form. The cost difference of the diesel hybrid's that are out
there
Glacier, Solomon, compared to conventional small diesels and a
generator,
would pay for five or more years of diesel fuel, the systems are
complicated,
vunerable to lightning hits, and in most cases heavier, all the
while the
diesel engines are just getting better and better (common rail,
electronic)
etc. Worried about cost? Buy a used 40 ft. sailing cat for
250-275k, don't
want to sail?, Pull the rig out of it, add slightly bigger diesels
(50-75 hp)
add a wedge or trim tab to the transom and cruise 10-12 knots and
burn three
gallons per hour.
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
I must say that I agree with Pat reischmann. What is wrong with the normal
catamaran as a motor sailer?
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and fit a rig to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this would occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was capable of.
If you are still determined to "boldly go where no man has gone before" you
could go where we went in 1992 and fit a wind turbine driving in the water
propellers [see web site- the "Revolution"]. However today I would go and buy
a reasonably substantial "off the shelf" wind turbine electric generator and
fit it to one of our CS hulled stock power cat designs. This would drive a
couple of electric motors in the hulls.
Incidentally, despite what several physicists have to say on the internet, the
Revolution would proceed directly to windward.
Regards,
Malcolm Tennant.
MALCOLM TENNANT MULTIHULL DESIGN LTD
PO Box 60513, Titirangi.
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND
Ph: +64 9 817 1988
e-mail: malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
Back in the mid 70's the USF had a conference on sail assisted
commercial craft. Dick Newick, Myself and 200 others attended with a
variety of papers, models and some full size working versions.
One craft from the University Engineering Students was a windmill on a
cat, driving a prop. Would also go directly to weather.
Only thing wrong was it was stepped at the normal mast step (used a
sailing cat) and that blade was close to the deck.
This was straight mechanical no electric motors or batteries.
There are lots of options on motorsailor /power multihulls out there
besides the huge solar panels.
len
Malcolm Tennant wrote:
I must say that I agree with Pat reischmann. What is wrong with the normal
catamaran as a motor sailer?
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and fit a rig to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this would occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was capable of.
If you are still determined to "boldly go where no man has gone before" you
could go where we went in 1992 and fit a wind turbine driving in the water
propellers [see web site- the "Revolution"]. However today I would go and buy
a reasonably substantial "off the shelf" wind turbine electric generator and
fit it to one of our CS hulled stock power cat designs. This would drive a
couple of electric motors in the hulls.
Incidentally, despite what several physicists have to say on the internet, the
Revolution would proceed directly to windward.
Regards,
Malcolm Tennant.
MALCOLM TENNANT MULTIHULL DESIGN LTD
PO Box 60513, Titirangi.
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND
Ph: +64 9 817 1988
e-mail: malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
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Capt. Len Susman, retired
trikini23@trikini.com
After Dec. 13,2007
Email : trikini2007@comcast.net
What's New
http://www.trikini.com/whatn.htm
Hi Malcolm,
I don't see "Revolution" on any of the sites shown at the bottom of
your post.
Tx.
rupert.
On 18 Dec 2007, at 02:24, Malcolm Tennant wrote:
I must say that I agree with Pat reischmann. What is wrong with the
normal
catamaran as a motor sailer?
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and fit a rig
to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this would
occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was capable of.
If you are still determined to "boldly go where no man has gone
before" you
could go where we went in 1992 and fit a wind turbine driving in
the water
propellers [see web site- the "Revolution"]. However today I would
go and buy
a reasonably substantial "off the shelf" wind turbine electric
generator and
fit it to one of our CS hulled stock power cat designs. This would
drive a
couple of electric motors in the hulls.
Incidentally, despite what several physicists have to say on the
internet, the
Revolution would proceed directly to windward.
Regards,
Malcolm Tennant.
MALCOLM TENNANT MULTIHULL DESIGN LTD
PO Box 60513, Titirangi.
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND
Ph: +64 9 817 1988
e-mail: malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Revolution is listed under Sailing - 15 to 20m
MALCOLM TENNANT MULTIHULL DESIGN LTD
PO Box 60513, Titirangi.
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND
Ph: +64 9 817 1988
e-mail: malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
--- On Mon, 12/17/07, Malcolm Tennant malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz wrote:
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and
fit a rig to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this
would occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was
capable of.
Malcolm, Pat, et al
I wonder if you could comment on the sailing ability of a power cat hull (e.g. CS hull form). There has been much discussion of squatting of a traditional sailing hull that limits powering speed.
A designer/builder of both power and sail cruising cats once told me that since the force generated by the sails is so far above the water line that sailing hulls needed much more buoyancy forward - and as the force applied by props was along such a different line, that the a motorsailor would always involve a heavy compromise in sailing/powering or both due to the requirements of different hull shapes for sail v power.
Thanks -- Mark
It would seem that the varying requirements of hull shapes for optimum
sailing or powering could be adressed by a trimaran motorsailer with
variable position sponsons. Have there been any design attempts along this
line of thought?
Curious, Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark" mark424x@yahoo.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Sailability of powercat hulls - was Hybrid Powercats
--- On Mon, 12/17/07, Malcolm Tennant malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz wrote:
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and
fit a rig to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this
would occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was
capable of.
Malcolm, Pat, et al
I wonder if you could comment on the sailing ability of a power cat hull
(e.g. CS hull form). There has been much discussion of squatting of a
traditional sailing hull that limits powering speed.
A designer/builder of both power and sail cruising cats once told me that
since the force generated by the sails is so far above the water line that
sailing hulls needed much more buoyancy forward - and as the force applied
by props was along such a different line, that the a motorsailor would
always involve a heavy compromise in sailing/powering or both due to the
requirements of different hull shapes for sail v power.
Thanks -- Mark
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
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Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date:
12/17/2007 2:13 PM
the Trikini 6.47 swing wing had an inboard diesel. the OR had a dihedral
of about 5 degrees in sailing position and this did produce in some
condition a rolling motion. But swung aft they were 4 1/2 ft aft and
the dihedral was gone and the power was much more comfortable.
This was not a deliberate aim in the design but something that was
observed in usage. This was in 76-80 era
Noelle Harrott wrote:
It would seem that the varying requirements of hull shapes for optimum
sailing or powering could be adressed by a trimaran motorsailer with
variable position sponsons. Have there been any design attempts along this
line of thought?
Curious, Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark" mark424x@yahoo.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Sailability of powercat hulls - was Hybrid Powercats
--- On Mon, 12/17/07, Malcolm Tennant malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz wrote:
However I might deviate slightly from that contention and
fit a rig to one of
our CS power cat designs. The only real advantages of this
would occur if you
wanted to go a bit faster than the sail boat hull was
capable of.
Malcolm, Pat, et al
I wonder if you could comment on the sailing ability of a power cat hull
(e.g. CS hull form). There has been much discussion of squatting of a
traditional sailing hull that limits powering speed.
A designer/builder of both power and sail cruising cats once told me that
since the force generated by the sails is so far above the water line that
sailing hulls needed much more buoyancy forward - and as the force applied
by props was along such a different line, that the a motorsailor would
always involve a heavy compromise in sailing/powering or both due to the
requirements of different hull shapes for sail v power.
Thanks -- Mark
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date:
12/17/2007 2:13 PM
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
--
Live Long and Prosper
Capt. Len Susman, retired
trikini23@trikini.com
After Dec. 13,2007
Email : trikini2007@comcast.net
What's New
http://www.trikini.com/whatn.htm