34401A Why 10M ohm default i/p resistance?
Hello
In the manual (!), HP reasons the 10M standard input resistance:
"Normally, the multimeter’s input resistance is fixed at 10 MΩ for all dc voltage ranges to minimize noise pickup."
I explained that to myself like this: AC stray fields or noisy high impedance sources induce noise input currents in the DMM frontend.
The higher its input Z, the higher the noise voltage reading will be.
In that sense, 10MOhm 'shorts' those noise effects.
Anyhow, my 3458A is always programmed to have TOhm input Z as power up state, therefore I have to short the input jacks, whenever the instrument is not connected, or doing an ACAL. That avoids drifting of the input and unwanted relays actuations, when left open.
On the 34401A, it is very uncomfortable to set the input to high Z every time, as many keypresses are needed.
So agilent recognized that dilemma, and improved the handling on the new 34461A:
Changing input Z is only one additional keypress, as this feature is assigned to one of the soft keys.
Frank
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Hi,
On 11/04/2014 10:53, frank.stellmach@freenet.de wrote:
Hello
In the manual (!), HP reasons the 10M standard input resistance:
"Normally, the multimeter’s input resistance is fixed at 10 MΩ for all dc voltage ranges to minimize noise pickup."
Oops! I'm ashamed to say I missed that!
I explained that to myself like this: AC stray fields or noisy high impedance sources induce noise input currents in the DMM frontend.
The higher its input Z, the higher the noise voltage reading will be.
In that sense, 10MOhm 'shorts' those noise effects.
Frank, I realise you know all the following perfectly well - so please
don't take offense, but hopefully, for the benefits of others:
You can't have your cake and eat it! You might be 'shorting' the noise
but you're equally shorting your signal; if you've got that much noise
then you've got some potentially difficult signal conditioning to do if
you want to make accurate measurements. Sticking a 1% tolerance 10M
across the signal to cut the noise makes no sense at all - it's only
going to make a significant difference to the noise if the source
resistance is > 10M or so, in which case why are you using a 6-1/2 or
even 8-1/2 digit meter? You might as well use a 1 digit meter - at least
that wouldn't give any false illusions of accuracy. Wouldn't a capacitor
(with a resistance >> 10M) across the input make more sense? If the test
leads are long then 10M at the meter is going to reduce the noise more
than 10M at the source, but the problem remains.
In the case of the 3458A using the 10M I/P resistance requires the
source resistance to be < 100 milli-ohms for it not to show errors on
the 8-1/2 digit scales - so OK. for measuring voltage regulators,
batteries etc. but very little else including precision voltage
references or the O/P of an op-amp etc. The 3458A does default to the
high I/P resistance state though so you have to choose to change it to
10M, unlike the 34401A which defaults it to on.
Even if you do know the precise resistance of the source allowing you to
calculate the actual source voltage, the 1% tolerance of the 10M
restricts the accuracy to 2 or 3 digits at best - so again it makes no
sense to me to be relying on a non-precision resistor on precision
instruments - even the 3458A's 10M has a 1% tolerance. You could measure
the I/P resistance of your meter with another 6-1/2 or 8-1/2 digit meter
but how many people do that? And how are you going to measure the source
resistance accurately? What if its non-linear?
If you're relying on that 10M, chances are you're using the wrong
instrument.
I did find this explanation in the 3458A manual:/
When making DC voltage measurements, you can fix the multimeter's input
resistance using the FlXEDZ command. This is useful to prevent a change
in input resistance caused by changing ranges) from affecting the
measurements//
/
A bit feeble though. If your measurement changes when changing ranges
that is a good thing - it highlights that you've got a problem and
you need to think about it and decide which, if either, measurement is
accurate rather than hide the problem by showing consistent, but
consistently wrong readings. The a rather special case anyway,
applicable to I/P voltages at the boundary between the 10 and 100V range
- if its less than 10V (well 12V on the 34401A/3458A) then you've no
reason to use a higher range.
I suppose it could be useful to observe a signal where you aren't
concerned about the absolute accuracy but want high resolution relative
measurements - eg. drift measurements or measuring the linearity of a
slope. You need to know though that the 10M is not going to move the
high impedance source into a non-linear region.
It looks like this is a HP feature; looking at the manuals for the
Solartron 7081 and Datron 1071 meters they don't appear to be have the
facility to lower the I/P resistance from >= 10G for ranges below 100V.
Anyhow, my 3458A is always programmed to have TOhm input Z as power up state, therefore I have to short the input jacks, whenever the instrument is not connected, or doing an ACAL. That avoids drifting of the input and unwanted relays actuations, when left open.
I suppose that could be a slight concern although my 34401A doesn't
seem to drift much beyond 200mV - I guess it could sit around the 120mV
switching threshold of the 100mV and 1V ranges and keep switching
between them. I've never seen it though, and wouIdn't be concerned about
the relay life even if it did (although the noise might be irritating).
On the 34401A, it is very uncomfortable to set the input to high Z every time, as many keypresses are needed.
So agilent recognized that dilemma, and improved the handling on the new 34461A:
Changing input Z is only one additional keypress, as this feature is assigned to one of the soft keys.
Frank
That's good to see. I think they just got it wrong on the 34401A
Tony H
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In message 53482D9E.9060904@toneh.demon.co.uk, Tony writes:
I did find this explanation in the 3458A manual:
When making DC voltage measurements, you can fix the multimeter's input
resistance using the FlXEDZ command. This is useful to prevent a change
in input resistance caused by changing ranges) from affecting the
measurements.
Please don't forget that the 3458A is not just an 8.5 digit
metrological wonder, it is also a precision 16 bit 100 ksample/s
digitizer.
Many of the attributes of the input circuit are not there for
voltage metrology.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi Paul,
On 11/04/2014 19:18, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message 53482D9E.9060904@toneh.demon.co.uk, Tony writes:
I did find this explanation in the 3458A manual:
When making DC voltage measurements, you can fix the multimeter's input
resistance using the FlXEDZ command. This is useful to prevent a change
in input resistance caused by changing ranges) from affecting the
measurements.
Please don't forget that the 3458A is not just an 8.5 digit
metrological wonder, it is also a precision 16 bit 100 ksample/s
digitizer.
Yes I'm well aware of that but it doesn't make any difference if you're
observing the display or the logged data - you would not want that 10M ±
1% resistor across the input - unless you have no choice because the
input exceeds 12V and you have to use a 100V+ range, in which case you
have to accept the limitations of the instrument. I accept that it could
help in some situations where you aren't bothered about absolute
measurements but are interested in changes and the resistor helps to
reduce the noise.
In such a situation I agree you would probably be logging the data
rather than looking at the display but the sampling rate has no bearing
at all on this issue.
Many of the attributes of the input circuit are not there for
voltage metrology.
I can't think of any - I'd be interested to know what you have in mind?
Regards,
Tony H
In message 534840DA.4070808@toneh.demon.co.uk, Tony writes:
Many of the attributes of the input circuit are not there for
voltage metrology.
I can't think of any - I'd be interested to know what you have in mind?
One of the articles in HP Journal is specifically about how the
input circuit is designed for use also in sampling AC measurements
and digitizer applications.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
On 11/04/2014 20:59, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message 534840DA.4070808@toneh.demon.co.uk, Tony writes:
Many of the attributes of the input circuit are not there for
voltage metrology.
I can't think of any - I'd be interested to know what you have in mind?
One of the articles in HP Journal is specifically about how the
input circuit is designed for use also in sampling AC measurements
and digitizer applications.
Ok, thanks - that looks like it might be an interesting read - will go
and try and find it.
Tony H