A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery
pack.
-Chuck Harris
Tom Miller wrote:
If you change to Li-Ion, you give up the ability to ship by air or at least carry it
in any passenger aircraft.
You might look at the Li-Ion motorcycle batteries. They are designed to charge from a
normal Pb-Ac system. Down side is a pair of them will run ~$600. They are >20 AH at
12 volts nominal.
Regards,
Tom
You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.
No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).
Regards,
David Partridge
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.
-Chuck Harris
Charles,
What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
located? In other words, how long can your external battery pack 'survive'
keeping the 732A 'hot'? Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does it
have to make a round trip on the initial charge? Once I am convinced my
unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I get
my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to Fluke
for calibration.
Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and Auxiliary
Battery Case (732A-7003). However, I have never seen a picture of either of
these. Does anyone have any information on these?
How did you make your case? Did you include a charger? Combination of
battery pack and shipping container or separate battery pack and shipping
container?
I was thinking of building a case with built-in charger, fuse, and AC
connector and cord such that when the unit arrived at the CAL facility all
that would be needed would be to plug it in and allow the external battery
pack to recharge while the unit being calibrated was plugged in, recharge
the internal batteries, and calibrated. Or does the 732A also charge the
external battery pack along with the internal batteries?
The connector you need (complete with female contacts) is a Hypertronics P/N
D01PB306FSTAH and is in stock at Kensington Electronics at $8.96 each (plus
tax and shipping). Only problem is their $50 minimum order.
The 'shell' only is P/N D01PB306NT and the female contact is P/N
YSK006-010ANH (three needed).
http://ecommerce.keiconn.com/hypertronics/D01PB306FSTAH
I ordered two of the connectors from Fluke using a P/N that one of the Fluke
folks in their eCal facility gave me, noting that someone else had asked the
same question a couple of weeks earlier, with Fluke Item# 2181497, described
as '100-166, PLUG - MALE, HYPERTRONICS'. They were $12.31 each (plus tax
and shipping) and arrived as the shell only, no contacts.
If Fluke solves their supply chain problem, I sure would like to get the six
female contacts I need to make my connectors 'complete'. When I got on the
phone with Fluke, I could never find anyone that had any knowledge about
this. Is there anyone there I should ask for that might understand my
question?
I look forward to your posting the update from Fluke.
Thanks.
Joe
I concur with Tom. Any attempt to convert to Lithium based batteries will almost certainly render the 732A unshippable, legally at least. There are many national and international regulations and guidelines on the shipping (and carrying on aircraft) of Lithium batteries. Some are freely available, some have to be paid for. A basic premise is that if the cells are built into the equipment or a battery it has to be independently tested before you can ship it. If they are removable cells then you just have to use tested cells (recognised quality manufacturers are generally OK) but there is a limit to the lithium content. I've looked at this as part of my work and it's a nightmare. While checking suitablility for a non-standard application I discovered that a product (with many regulatory and test requirements apart from the battery) from a highly reputable manufacturer had been mistakenly declared as OK to ship. They have now updated their advice. Many
shipping services have just put a blanket on them. This is not just unwarranted regulation, there have been several incidents over the years of fires caused by Lithium based batteries. I've personally seen two incidents with primary cells. One was a box of 1/2AA memory back-up cells exploding like firecrackers with hot cells flying several feet!
A stack of Alkaline D cells (14AH) might be an option. you could include a fresh set of cells for the return trip.
Robert G8RPI
From: Tom Miller tmiller11147@verizon.net
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 16:12
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
If you change to Li-Ion, you give up the ability to ship by air or at least
carry it in any passenger aircraft.
You might look at the Li-Ion motorcycle batteries. They are designed to
charge from a normal Pb-Ac system. Down side is a pair of them will run
~$600. They are >20 AH at 12 volts nominal.
Regards,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Knox" actast@hotmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
In my humble opinion your are best off first checking for a local Cal Lab
with a Josephson Junction Array Voltage Standard.
You can then drop it off and pick it up your 732A. I would imagine the day
of abuse during shipping has more effect on uncertainty then the rest of
the year combined sitting in a controlled lab environment. And Speaking of
Lab environments adding precise temp and humidity control will have a
substantial effect on 732A and 3458A stability. Hooking a number of small
electric heaters to PID controllers can provide even out room temperature.
Also I would almost always assume the 732A is more accurate then your
3458A even if you have the 002 or HFL option. Has anyone attempted
changing the battery technology to Li-Ion and redesigning the charger? I
am sure you could get greatly improved battery life.
Thomas Knox
From: jltran@att.net
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:50:55 -0600
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Charles,
Thanks for the info on batteries. I agree, some are definitely better
than
others. However, I'm no 'connoisseur' of batteries yet. The 732A I got
was
'unknown working condition' and I wanted the cheapest batteries I could
find
to test the unit and see if I could get it up and running. So far, it
looks
good.
Do you wind up having to re-solder some of the battery wires in the
battery
module in order to use the 12 V 5 AH batteries or will they just swing to
the other side since it appears that the (+) and (-) terminals will wind
up
on the same side, instead of opposite sides with the 6 V 4.5 AH
batteries?
I have not faced the shipping question yet, but, as David pointed out,
there
is an issue with shipping batteries. I suspect it could be shipped but
would be ground and, therefore, need a huge battery in order to get it to
the other side of the country 'hot'. I recall reading some thoughts on
current drain for the unit when on batteries but I do not remember what
it
was. Clearly, it should be at a minimum, and therefore the battery
should
last the longest, when already 'hot' when removed from AC power. Has
anyone
done that experiment? I live in NW FL and I am not aware of Cal Labs in
my
neighborhood that could do the work. Atlanta, perhaps? Does anyone have
a
recommendation of a capable Cal facility 'close by' to NW FL?
Short of sending it to Fluke or another facility, I will be limited to
using
my Agilent Cal'd 3458A to 'adjust' the 732A, then 'tracking' the 732A
from
year to year as the 3458A comes back from Cal.
I paid less than Michael and more than you for my unit but it seems to
work.
I have seen these sell on theBay for $450 and up.
Joe
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Some laptop batteries are not allowed. Spares have some limits also. Better
check because TSA will take them from you.
Lithium-ion batteries (a.k.a.: rechargeable lithium, lithium polymer,
LIPO, secondary lithium). Passengers may carry all
consumer-sized lithium-ion batteries (no more than 8 grams of equivalent
lithium content or 100 watt hours per battery). This
size covers AA, AAA, cell phone, PDA, camera, camcorder, handheld game,
tablet, and standard laptop computer batteries.
The watt hours (Wh) rating is marked on newer lithium ion batteries and is
explained in #3 below.
Passengers can also bring two (2) larger lithium-ion batteries (more than 8
less than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per
battery or about 100-300 watt hours per battery) in their carry-on. This
size covers the largest aftermarket extended-life laptop
batteries and most lithium-ion batteries for professional-grade audio/visual
equipment. Most lithium-ion batteries are below
this size.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Harris" cfharris@erols.com
To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery
pack.
-Chuck Harris
Tom Miller wrote:
If you change to Li-Ion, you give up the ability to ship by air or at
least carry it
in any passenger aircraft.
You might look at the Li-Ion motorcycle batteries. They are designed to
charge from a
normal Pb-Ac system. Down side is a pair of them will run ~$600. They are
20 AH at
12 volts nominal.
Regards,
Tom
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi David,
Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently safety tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer allowed to put batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and there are limits on the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it easier). This is pure safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron restriction is ITAR (google it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators in nuclear weapons (that probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).
Robert G8RPI.
From: David C. Partridge david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement' volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.
No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).
Regards,
David Partridge
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.
-Chuck Harris
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Unfortunately the hazards are indeed very real. The regulations were
almost certainly introduced because a UPS cargo plane crashed in Dubai
in 2010, killing both crew, as a result of a catastrophic fire in the
cargo of 80,000 to 90,000 lithium batteries.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324110404578625801602671408
And surprise, surprise:
'It added that shippers of some of the lithium battery cargo loaded onto
the plane in Hong Kong "did not properly declare these shipments" and
did not provide battery test reports recommended under U.N. aviation
guidelines.'
(Which may be of interest to those buying those AD584LH voltage
reference modules containing a lithium battery from Ebay).
And from
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger
In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport
Canada http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-2.pdf, the agencies
predicted there will be an average of six cargo plane crashes between
now and 2021, with four of them likely to be caused by battery fires.
Read more at
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger#1FZYPdiLXxLz0Fby.99
'In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport
Canada, the agencies predicted there will be an average of six cargo
plane crashes between now and 2021, with four of them likely to be
caused by battery fires.'
Tony H
On 08/03/2014 22:32, Robert Atkinson wrote:
Hi David,
Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently safety tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer allowed to put batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and there are limits on the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it easier). This is pure safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron restriction is ITAR (google it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators in nuclear weapons (that probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).
Robert G8RPI.
From: David C. Partridgedavid.partridge@perdrix.co.uk
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.
No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).
Regards,
David Partridge
-----Original Message-----
From:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.
-Chuck Harris
volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
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Michael,
Just a side note here on adjusting the 3 calibration pots inside the front
panel of the 732A
Fluke did supply an adjustment tool with each 732A but I don't know exactly
who made it or what model number. I use a General Cement ( GC ) model 8276
adjustment tool, the end with the blade recessed, to do the job. Sometimes
it takes a little fiddling and patience to get the adjustment tool to engage
the slot in the pot, but it can be done and without any danger of shorting
something out.
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70159521
360 uvolts ( 36 ppm ) above 10 volts seems more than a little high for one
of these units. The worst I have seen over 6 units is around 120 uvolts (
12 ppm ) out of spec, but I was able to bring it in by changing the jumpers
on the A7 board. It is conceivable that someone totally screwed up the last
calibration. You would need to take off the top cover, the top guard cover,
remove the top foam piece and take a look at the jumpers on the A7 board.
The one thing I can't remember right now is if shorting the resistors R12
through R17 on the A5 board, by adding or removing jumpers on the A7 board
lowers or raises the output voltage at 10 volts. But in the manual I did
find an addendum to paragraph 4-38 which says.
"Cutting a jumper increases the 732A 10 V output the amount labeled above
the jumper. Likewise, completing a jumper decreases the output the amount
of the jumper label".
So that should help you once you view the jumpers on the A7 board. I do
know that you can add or remove multiple jumpers on the A7 board so the
total range of the change in the 10 V output can be around 750 uvolts ( 75
ppm ). If you see many jumpers on the A7 board this would mean that someone
tried to lower the output voltage and that the reference could not be
adjusted properly to exactly 10 V. In other words if you see no jumpers on
the A7 board then you could possibly bring the output to exactly 10 V from
it's present ( presumed ) 36 ppm too high. You really need a "standard" 10
volts before you do this. But since the seller's DVM is reading 40 ppm too
high and your 3457A is reading 36 ppm too high then the output of the 732A
is probably also high.
What part of the country are you located in? Maybe one of the many "Volt
Nuts" lives close to you can give you an idea of what 10 Volts really is.
Also I have seen batteries that are so old and messed up that the "Charging"
light will never come on. The internal resistance is so high that the
charging circuit simply doesn't work. Your thermistor value and stability
seems very good so it looks like the oven temperature control circuits are
working correctly.
I hope the above helps you in determining if you keep the unit or send it
back.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
To: "'Michael Hong'" mikeyahee@yahoo.com; "'Discussion of precise voltage
measurement'" volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Michael,
The schematic of the A5 Reference PCB Assembly shows the calibration
adjustments and the drawing of that assembly shows the location of the
adjustments. They are deep inside the unit. You'll need a small flat
bladed tool, a flashlight, and probably a magnifier. I used a length of 12
ga. copper wire with one end flattened to make a screwdriver.
Good luck.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Hong
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 6:19 PM
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
(3)
Front panel calibration hole
I put a thin flat blade driver into the holes. I couldn't feel anything
until 4 1/4" inside where I felt something but not the potentiometer.
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I think everyone missed my point, Replace the current battery with ANY other type battery that is not destroyed by deep cyclng. Perhaps Ni-Mh would be better. Ni-Mh also has a very consistent output voltage (Low voltage drop) until nearly discharged. Also a quick Google search found a wealth of information on shipping Li-Ion and it appears the 732A batteries are right on the edge of no shipping restriction.
Thomas Knox
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 23:56:19 +0000
From: vnuts@toneh.demon.co.uk
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Unfortunately the hazards are indeed very real. The regulations were
almost certainly introduced because a UPS cargo plane crashed in Dubai
in 2010, killing both crew, as a result of a catastrophic fire in the
cargo of 80,000 to 90,000 lithium batteries.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324110404578625801602671408
And surprise, surprise:
'It added that shippers of some of the lithium battery cargo loaded onto
the plane in Hong Kong "did not properly declare these shipments" and
did not provide battery test reports recommended under U.N. aviation
guidelines.'
(Which may be of interest to those buying those AD584LH voltage
reference modules containing a lithium battery from Ebay).
And from
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger
In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport
Canada http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-2.pdf, the agencies
predicted there will be an average of six cargo plane crashes between
now and 2021, with four of them likely to be caused by battery fires.
Read more at
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger#1FZYPdiLXxLz0Fby.99
'In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport
Canada, the agencies predicted there will be an average of six cargo
plane crashes between now and 2021, with four of them likely to be
caused by battery fires.'
Tony H
On 08/03/2014 22:32, Robert Atkinson wrote:
Hi David,
Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently safety tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer allowed to put batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and there are limits on the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it easier). This is pure safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron restriction is ITAR (google it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators in nuclear weapons (that probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).
Robert G8RPI.
From: David C. Partridgedavid.partridge@perdrix.co.uk
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.
No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).
Regards,
David Partridge
-----Original Message-----
From:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft. A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.
-Chuck Harris
volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
That's not what the regs said last time I looked. You can carry
a few in your carry-on, inside, or outside of your laptop. There
are limits related to watt-hour capacity, though I don't remember
what they are.
-Chuck Harris
David C. Partridge wrote:
You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.
No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).
Regards,
David Partridge