Hello Robert, Georgs and all,

It will take a big pair of deck shoes to fill Malcolm's.  I hope I can help
in some way.  Malcolm and I had differing opinions in some areas of our
designs but we always remained good friends.  My introduction to power
catamarans and with designing was with a series of 20' "Alloy Cats" in
Australia in 1978 after which I built and motor sailed my 33'x22' catamaran
from Australia to the Caribbean.  It was in the Caribbean where I commenced
a 9 year maritime career as a yacht captain on vessels up to and including a
103' power catamaran and a 145' Feadship, so my experience is fairly unique
as I can incorporate things into my designs that office bound designers
never get to experience.

I am not a naval architect, but I am a 30 year designer and builder of power
catamarans and we do employ our own naval architects and engineers and I
will do my best to bring an unbiased input to your forum if I may.  I also
spent a year in Malaysia in the Design & Development Department with Grand
Banks where I had significant input on improving their newest 55' and their
new 41' Heritage that used the Cummins Zeus and CANbus systems.  I was also
involved in some research on a unique prop noise abatement technology.

I am the principle designer at TrawlerCat Marine and I pioneered trawler
power catamarans in 1996.  I hope to be able to help Robert and others
wanting knowledge on designs, construction and costs.  Costs are a little
outside of my area, but I can give reasons for costs being up or down
relative to the technology or an application.

Boat designs are entering a period of change, more like a quantum leap
actually, as most companies embrace green technologies.  We are currently
introducing a new 49' 'earth friendly' power catamaran and revising our
complete range of 15 models to take advantage of the evolution of green
technologies that have now proven themselves.

Green technologies cover everything that makes a catamaran use less carbon
fuel and operate more efficiently.  This includes diesel/electric
propulsion, pod propulsion, hydrofoils, CANbus electrical systems, improved
hull form and lighter construction methods and that includes resin infusion.
I have excluded hybrids because they use banks of batteries that are heavy,
expensive and are more suited to sailing boats as they can re-charge them by
using the dragging prop as a generator while sailing.

The downside to new technology is that it does cost more and as a catamaran
aficionado since the early 60's I know how most boaters abhor the extra cost
of catamarans over a powerboat of the same length.  But comparing a 40'
powerboat to a 40' power catamaran is similar to comparing a 2 bedroom 2
bathroom 1,500 square foot condo with a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 square foot
condo.  We all know you have to pay more for the larger condo because you
know you're going to get more for your money and you certainly do get more
in a power catamaran.

But space is not all you get in a power catamaran; you get the safety of two
widely spaced hulls each with their own center of buoyancy that provides a
much higher and safer heel angle.  You get stand alone engine rooms so that
if one engine room is down for any reason you can always get home safely on
the other engine room.  If one engine room is flooded you won't sink and can
probably motor to a safe harbor.  The degree of comfort on a power catamaran
in choppy conditions compared to the same conditions on a powerboat have to
be experienced to appreciate and once experienced most people make up their
minds in favor of a power catamaran.

To answer Robert's questions specifically;
"What are the design/cost/construction implications?"  Builders and
designers are aware that they operate in an extremely competitive market
area if they are to gain market share from the powerboat and sailing
markets.  The power cat market is divided into two areas, production cats,
usually up to about 40' and custom built cats, usually from 40' up. However
I don't believe builders in either market area are prepared to cut corners
where safety and quality are concerned as this could prove to be suicidal.
To be competitive builders have to be well organized and efficient and a
production power cat builder must turn out a reasonable number of boats a
year to be profitable and recover their tooling and other costs.  A custom
cat builder may only turn out one boat a year or one every 18 moths if it's
over 65'.  A custom boat builder who takes two years or more to build a cat
up to 65' will find his overheads have eaten up all his profit and unless he
plays 'catch up', which is using the next customers money to finish the boat
ahead of it, he may soon go out of business.  Due diligence is called for
before entering into contract with a custom or semi-custom boat builder.

Obviously most of the readers of this forum are more interested in
production cats around 30' so I will try to focus on that, but if anyone
wants to contact me seeking information on custom boat building or a
particular builder I will be happy to provide them with what ever
information I have.

"What design compromises are made to balance cost with performance?"  I
wouldn't call it design compromises, but all power catamaran designers are
aware that performance is all about the power to weight ratio and every
extra pound you put on a cat has to be pushed through the water and if those
extra pounds add up to be extra hundreds of pounds then you are burning
extra fuel just to push this extra weight around.  So everyone should try to
build light without compromising strength and owners should be aware of the
weight they add to a completed boat.  The only way to reduce the cost of
production cats is to use as many molds as is practical.  Molds cost money
to produce and to maintain and many company's may not have this money
initially, instead they may add more small parts molds as they sell more
boats.  This will allow them to hold their price steady for longer even as
resin and other costs keep going up.

"How does volume production affect cost and quality"?  Volume has a big
affect, the higher the volume the better buying prices the builder's can
negotiate and, usually, the better organized and efficient they are.  I
doubt anyone would ever compromise quality.  It would be at their own peril
if they did.  Some builders may choose to keep prices down by not using the
'top quality' item but that doesn't mean that second or third best will not
do the job.  Many others may provide a base price boat with a list of
options and extras that doesn't even include enough safety equipment for the
boat to legally leave the dock.  Fortunately less and less of this type of
thing happens as builders and brokers find that their customers are not
stupid after all.

"What considerations have to go into buyer customization, what are some of
the more common customizations, and how do they affect cost?"  In a
production cat involving molds customization can be expensive and for that
reason it is usually limited to the builder's available options.  Anything
other than this then you are entering into a semi-custom built boat and this
obviously involves hand labor which will be expensive.  This is an area that
can only be discussed by each boat builder as it depends on each builder's
production schedule.  If they have to pull a boat out of the line and put
different types of tradesmen on it it gets messy and time consuming for the
builder and you will have to pay for this.  I don't believe there are any
common customizations on production cats only common options.  Semi-custom
boat builders take customization in their stride but it all has to be paid
for, by you.  If for instance you want to change the layout to suit your
specific needs this must be discussed and agreed to before the builder even
quotes or estimates on the job.

What are some of the business dynamics of launching a new boat design?"
Wow!  Now that's a whole different question.  Launching a new design
commences with market feedback and then market research to see how big that
market is and whether it is worth the investment, is there anyone already
supplying this market and if so is it big enough for two, etc.  If the
answers are yes, then it's time to get your design people involved and come
up with a boat that will fill the need and timing to get this boat to
market.  At the same time you need to have your accounting people involved
to come up with the numbers.  Once the design has been decided on it has to
be proven either by computer simulations or as a change from an existing
proven model.  Extrapolating up or down in size from a boat that has already
been proven is the least expensive way get to your starting point for the
new model.  If it's a production boat and once all the engineering has been
done and the construction plans drawn up then you need to build the plugs,
or have them CNC cut, they then need to be prepared and laid-up to be taken
off as the molds, the molds need to cure and be themselves be prepared and
tested for air leaks if resin infusion is being used in the construction of
the first boat.  All this is not something that can be undertaken lightly,
it is a big commitment in time, money and resources and a significant gamble
that it will be well received and become a profitable venture.  I know I
experienced this process at Grand Banks.

Cheers,

Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:06:37 -0900
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
To: PCW List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: C720BBBD.5DAE%deering@ak.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Fair enough, Georgs.  It is your forum so you have every right to define the
dialogue and I will defer to your judgment.  I too would like to know more
specifics such as:

• What are some of the material decisions that a boat builder makes, and
  what are the design/cost/construction implications?
• What design compromises are made to balance cost with performance?
• How does volume production affect cost and quality?
• What considerations have to go into buyer customizations, what are some
  of the more common customizations, and how do they affect cost?
• What are some of the business dynamics of launching a new boat design?

In my view Russell only touched on a few of those issues, then launched into
his standard marketing spiel.  I think with this audience, as Rod Gibbons
has learned, respecting us as a somewhat knowledgeable group who wants
specifics rather than spin will prove to be a far more effective 'marketing
strategy' in the long run.

I look forward to getting input from a designer/builder again.  Since the
tragic loss of Malcolm Tennant, this board has lacked that perspective and
I'd gratefully welcome Russell's input in that capacity.  I'd also love to
hear from Chris White, the designer behind the Buzzards Bay and many other
sailing multihulls.  I've spoken with Chris before, and read his outstanding
book, and think he would add a ton to the dialogue.

Georgs, thanks again for hosting this forum.  I find it a valuable addition
to my day.

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 55, Issue 4

Yes, Many thanks to both Graham and Russell, your comments are incredibly valuable.  I think many only hear the horror stories of custom builds gone wrong or think it's very expensive and tend to eliminate that option early.

A couple followups while you are on the line:

(a) Lifecyclecosts: There is the old joke that cruising is fixing your boat in distant ports.  What is your sense of both the truth and the cause.  Is this a perception that arises from many long range cruisers sailing/motoring 30 year old boats on limited budgets?  Inconsistent quality in marine mechanics?  Is it a combination of harsh environment and high parts cost due to low volume sales?  While I have no doubt that salt water is a hash environment, when you think about a car driving around pot holed streets caked with ice and salt, well that's a harsh environment as well.  Should we just be keeping the boat sealed and de-humidified and use cheap consumer grade components (i.e. harden the vessel instead of each part)?  Is it a result of too many gee whiz systems? Is it a result of space constraints, so repairs are that much harder and thus delayed more than they should be?  My observation is that a fair proportion of cruisers fall into one of two
categories, either the almost completeyself sufficient do-it-yourselferor the folks with a substantial budget - e.g. the self restored 67 Mustang or the big benz.  What is stopping the Camry or Honda Pilot of boats?

(b) Long vs Big vs expensive:  In the old days people would estimate the cost of a boat in $/lb.  Beuhlermay still do that.  I've read many designers say (relative to monos) that long narrow boats aren't any more expensive than short/wide.  Yet we all know that the retail cost of a boat goes up exponentially with length/size.  Could you really build a spacious boat for a relatively small incremental price increase if the systems were kept relatively fixed?  Is it that slip fees so dominate the financial equation that people want to pack as much into as little as possible?  Is it that the consumer has been brainwashed and the guy who wants a 50' boat compares all 50' boats and wants the one with more stuff and the guy that had a 40' boat in his head won't look at the 50'er that's a stretched 40?

(c) Cost game changers?:  Is it just an incremental game of tweaking and optimizing, or are there opportunities for new materials or technology to drive major cost savings?  It could be the massive investment in composites by the aircraft industry, the drops in price of CNCmills and cutters,....if you could dream up a technology - or make an existing technology much cheaper - that would lower production costs by 20, 30, or 40% - what would it be?

Many thanks!

Mark

Mark Long
Marina del Rey, CA

From: "Bill Carlson, Sr." bcarlson@erols.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 3:12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing

Wow!
That was the most learned response that I 've seen on this forum in a while.
Bill Carlson