Relaxing here in Georgetown, Exuma and contemplating our cruising plans
for the next few months.

I am wondering if anyone on the list has done the loop clockwise or
"backwards," and can offer any advice on the matter.  Our boat is too
tall to clear the forever-closed railroad bridge west of Chicago no
matter what we do to it, and in its current configuration, the furthest
north we were able to get on the east coast was Troy, NY (which, to be
fair, was a wonderful cruise, thanks in no small part to listee Larry
Zeitlin and his excellent Hudson River cruising guide).

So we are contemplating heading around the Gulf to Mobile and doing the
traditional western half of the route backwards, stair-stepping up the
locks of the Tenn-Tom and doing occasional battle with river currents.
Upon reaching the Ohio we might continue a short ways upriver before
heading for Cairo and the Mississippi.  Ultimately we will cruise the
Mississippi all the way to New Orleans, but depending on exactly when we
arrive in Cairo, we might first head upriver a ways, and/or we might
make a detour up the Missouri.

The boat is a full-displacement trawler, with an economical cruise of
6.5kt and a reasonable full speed of around 8kt (flank speed is close to
10).  I am mostly concerned with any spots along the route where
overcoming the current will be a major problem, and/or advice about how
dam releases are timed.  Our fixed air draft is 25', and any places
where this might become an issue would also be appreciated.

Ironically, the boat itself has done nearly the entire loop, having been
brought to its first home port of Sturgeon Bay from Nova Scotia by its
first owner, and then brought down through Chicago to Mobile via the
Tenn-Tom and around to its next home port of Savannah by the second
owner.  Before we bought it, a hard top was added that stops at 19'8",
and the previously folding mast was hard-wired into the hard top so that
it is now essentially fixed and makes for a 24'8" air draft.

We're in the very early planning stages at this point, so in
anticipation of some of the questions: no we have not purchased the full
set of charts (although many are here on the boat from its first and
last excursion down this route) and I have not painstakingly followed
the route looking at each and every bridge clearance.  I'm hoping to
hear of any show-stoppers here so that I don't spend a ton of money or
time on a fool's errand.

I should mention also that our boat has a 6,000nm range and can be
self-sufficient in terms of water and waste capacity for a full month,
so I am not concerned about the lack of pleasure boat facilities along
the Mississippi between Cairo and New Orleans.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide.

-Sean
m/y Vector
lying Georgetown, Exuma, BS
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

Sean,

We have travel most of the western upstream and downstream as a slow 8 mph trawler.  The Missouri is a very daunting river to attempt by a large slow trawler because it is shallow, uncontrolled by locks and suffers rapidly shifting shoals and water levels and we have not attempted it as conditions were not favorable when near it.

Yes this reverse loop route is doable, at least to the Rail Bridge on the Illinois River for you.  Several displacement speed trawlers(we included) have reversed this portion of the loop, going back across the Gulf, up the Tenn/Tom and up the Mississippi from the Tenn. River to Minneapolis and up the Ohio River to Pittsburgh etc..  What is needed is patience and recognition of waiting for any flooding to abate.  The dam releases have very little impact on the overall current in most of the river as releases are usually a result of flooding and if needed to generate electricity result in minimal overall increase in current until near downstream of the dam.  You can use the NWS rivers site to get to flow capacities, gage water levels and prediction of potential flooding.  Flow equates to current but is given as volume measurement (eg cubic feet per second) so you just make your own general correlations.
Higher water level, flow = greater current.
You can play the "the best position" in the river to minimize current(inside turns) if against or to maximize(outside turns) if favorable.  You will need a good understanding of how to find "safe" anchorages on rivers.  Use Active Captain markers to initially understand where folks have anchored and analyze why, e.g. down stream behind a point off the inside of a  bend where the current sweeps to the outside.  You then have protection from float and any loose barges which will mostly follow the current.  If the anchorage has an open view downstream up bound tows can see you from a distance , especially if you have an AIS B transponder.  I highly recommend the class B transponder for the rivers.  Personally, I consider it an essential piece of safety equipment for cruising the rivers.  You will encounter many more tows then pleasure craft.  These tows "push" large numbers of barges in a raft(array).  The largest we've encountered(lower Mississippi River which has no locks) was 60 barges(6x10) which is a huge barge array plus tow = 2200' long and 210' wide.  This is an extreme size as the more usual size of the entire array is determined by lock dimensions and the channel of the river with it's twists and turns.  15(3x5) to 30(5x6) barge arrays are the norm, albeit still a large "ship" like boat to overtake or meet on the narrow twists and turns of a river where the channels are often guarded by current channeling rock wing dams. AIS B permits the tow captain to see you (often well before you see them on your non commercial AIS display) and predict when and where you both will meet.  You absolutely should avoid meeting in a tight turn where there is not enough room(width) for you to safely pass or overtake the Tow as it flanks the entire width of the channel.  Also, the prop wash from these large tows pushing "heavy"(loaded barges) against the current can generate extremely turbulent 6' to 8' standing waves for a 1/4 mile behind them.  Consider your speed made good over the tow when passing to calculate where the entire passing takes place before clearing the lead barge so as to avoid a conflict. When passing your speed will be slightly reduced by the effect of the barges moving through the water until you pass the lead barge bow wake.  Hopefully, all this long winded posting has not alarmed you but is intended to forearm you for this wonderful adventure which I highly recommend.  These western rivers offer absolutely wonderful cruising all too often ignored by loopers.

Hope You enjoy these wonderful cruising venues,

Be safe and may all your crossings be boring,

Joe Pica
M/V Carolyn Ann GH N-37
http://carolynann-n37.blogspot.com/
MTOA#3813, AGLCA #5485 Platinum (3 loops)

You should definitely do the loop.  It's a wonderful experience.
The boating is fun and can be a bit challenging at times but
we found that doing the loop is mostly about the people you
meet and make friends with and have fun with.  As good as
it is, the boating is definitely secondary.

When you do the loop backwards you miss most of the social
aspects of looping, including the three AGLCA  Rendezvous.
We made lifetime friends and still see some of them on a
regular basis.  Most of the loopers were fun and very
interesting people you get to know pretty well.

Unless your main objective is doing the loop in your current
boat, no matter what, I'd suggest you park it for a year and
buy or borrow a competent boat just to do the loop.  You can
sell it when you finish.  36 feet is plenty big enough.

Jim Fidler  Punta Gorda, FL

I am wondering if anyone on the list has done the loop clockwise or
"backwards," and can offer any advice on the matter.

My opinion of the loop experience differs in that we most enjoyed the adventure and exploring new horizons(side trips off the normal path) on our 3 loops.  While we enjoyed dock side gatherings we don't feel that they were the greatest loop reward for us.  The loop is a much more complex cruise then just a social event.  Folks do the loop for various reasons and motivations and defined their own rewards.  For some, it is simply a bucket list accomplishment a circle to complete.  Some like cruising and cruising challenges, choosing their own direction and time. Some like the social aspect of loop, traveling and cruising amongst friends.  And some like cruising solo.  I don't think any one choice is intrinsically better then the other, just different and of individual subject value.

Joe Pica
M/V Carolyn Ann GH N-37
http://carolynann-n37.blogspot.com/
MTOA#3813, AGLCA #5485

"...we found that doing the loop is mostly about the people you meet and make friends with and have fun with.  As good as it is, the boating is definitely secondary..."

The Great Loop is a wonderful thing.  Back in 2003 I purchased the perfect
loop cruiser and shoved off, heading north up the Hudson River.  And then I
fell in love with the New York Canals so much that in 2008 I bought a house
on the Champlain Canal complete with my own harbor.

I doubt that I will ever do the actual Loop, but I am thrilled that I did
start, and even more thrilled that I found what I was always looking for.
Yes, winter is hard here and it did drop to 35 degrees below zero this
winter but I have become used to it, and it sure beats living in paved-over
New Jersey.

The scenery is fabulous, the people are great and life is damned good.

Next month, I will again lock up the house and this time head west on the
Erie Canal and will go all the way out to Buffalo and Lake Erie.  It will
be with a different "Admiral" now, and I will have the fun of showing Mary
Ellen all the places on the Canals that I have known and loved, and
introduce her to all my friends out there.

I'll be gone a month or so, and then back home, where I tend to get a lot
of visitors on boats at my little village of Fort Edward.

There's just nothing like it and I keep thinking I must have been a Good
Guy in my previous life.

Fred
Tug 44

I am not a looper at this point (2 years to retirement then we are a go)
but I do have over 30,000 miles worth of experience cruising rivers of
the Midwest. Running against the current should be manageable for you
with a few exceptions. Flooding has been mentioned and "usually" happens
during the spring.  During these times the water levels are high and the
current really kicks in making it difficult to make headway in a trawler.

Another problem with current awaits you on the Missouri as it doesn't
have to be flooding to find nearly a 4 mph current - and worse. And then
there the rock rip rap finger dikes used to force the flow into a narrow
passage and as a result more or less create self-dredging. Some of these
dikes extend all the way to mid river and none of them are marked (other
than on the river chart). If the water is a little high they may be
lurking below the surface just waiting to rip at the hull or drive
train. The best way to navigate it is to use the on shore daymarks and
follow a straight line between each. At times you may me 10' off one
bank and several 100 off the other. Move to the center of the river and
you maybe sitting on the rocks. The Missouri demands your undivided
attention at the helm and for me that is not a relaxing cruise. The
lower Missouri is the most problematic with MANY rock dikes and in my
opinion not very scenic with the exception of a few areas. I have been
upstream to just west of Sioux City Nebraska where you run out of
water.  The upper is better but to me it is not worth running the lower
to reach the upper.  I have traveled most all the Midwestern rivers and
honestly the Missouri is the only one I have no desire to cover again.
NONE.

If you are looking for a side trip and do yourself a favor and turn
upstream on the Tennessee and make the trip to Chattanooga. It is a
great run and you can continue on to Knoxville if you like but the
Nickajack pool leading to Chattanooga itself is worth the trip. A
shorter side trip would be up the Cumberland to Nashville. It is also a
nice trip but not as nice as the Tennessee but worlds better than the
Missouri. Nashville's city dock is at the foot of the downtown area and
if you like country music you will be in heaven.

Also, you mention being self sufficient and I wonder if that includes a
watermaker. I have no experience with them but it is my understanding
they normally need fairly clean water. Some Midwest rivers maybe sort of
clear at times but it is not unusual for many - like the Mississippi and
the Missouri  - to 95% of the time look like chocolate milk - just full
of silt. I can't imagine anything but industrial filters handling this
of any length of time.

Ray Macke
Homebuilts Therapy and Seaquinn
http://egyptian.net/~raymacke/index.html

We have a watermaker that I installed, a "Cruise RO Water" modular system and we have used it on the Mississippi, the ICW and in the Bahamas.  The prefilters plug fast in the muddy river or brackish water,  I have to change them usually about 5 cycles or 1000 gals of good water.  I understand that these reverse osmosis watermakers filter out all solids and bacteria but I still use 1/2 cup of bleach per 200 gallon batch.  I am nervous about this extra chlorine in our stainless water tank but the concentration should be about the same as city water.

Robert and Patty Mitchell with Maggi the wonder dog
MV ORINOCO, lying Tenn-Tom Waterway, Columbus Ms

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Macke raymacke@egyptian.net
To: great-loop great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2015 7:23 am
Subject: Re: GL: Looping "backwards"

I am not a looper at this point (2 years to retirement then we are a go)
but I
do have over 30,000 miles worth of experience cruising rivers of
the Midwest.
Running against the current should be manageable for you
with a few
exceptions. Flooding has been mentioned and "usually" happens
during the
spring.  During these times the water levels are high and the
current really
kicks in making it difficult to make headway in a trawler.

Another problem
with current awaits you on the Missouri as it doesn't
have to be flooding to
find nearly a 4 mph current - and worse. And then
there the rock rip rap
finger dikes used to force the flow into a narrow
passage and as a result more
or less create self-dredging. Some of these
dikes extend all the way to mid
river and none of them are marked (other
than on the river chart). If the
water is a little high they may be
lurking below the surface just waiting to
rip at the hull or drive
train. The best way to navigate it is to use the on
shore daymarks and
follow a straight line between each. At times you may me
10' off one
bank and several 100 off the other. Move to the center of the
river and
you maybe sitting on the rocks. The Missouri demands your undivided

attention at the helm and for me that is not a relaxing cruise. The
lower
Missouri is the most problematic with MANY rock dikes and in my
opinion not
very scenic with the exception of a few areas. I have been
upstream to just
west of Sioux City Nebraska where you run out of
water.  The upper is better
but to me it is not worth running the lower
to reach the upper.  I have
traveled most all the Midwestern rivers and
honestly the Missouri is the only
one I have no desire to cover again.
NONE.

If you are looking for a side
trip and do yourself a favor and turn
upstream on the Tennessee and make the
trip to Chattanooga. It is a
great run and you can continue on to Knoxville if
you like but the
Nickajack pool leading to Chattanooga itself is worth the
trip. A
shorter side trip would be up the Cumberland to Nashville. It is also
a
nice trip but not as nice as the Tennessee but worlds better than the

Missouri. Nashville's city dock is at the foot of the downtown area and
if
you like country music you will be in heaven.

Also, you mention being self
sufficient and I wonder if that includes a
watermaker. I have no experience
with them but it is my understanding
they normally need fairly clean water.
Some Midwest rivers maybe sort of
clear at times but it is not unusual for
many - like the Mississippi and
the Missouri  - to 95% of the time look like
chocolate milk - just full
of silt. I can't imagine anything but industrial
filters handling this
of any length of time.

Ray Macke
Homebuilts Therapy
and
Seaquinn
http://egyptian.net/~raymacke/index.html

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I want to thank everyone who responded to my request for information on
this subject, some of whom communicated off-list.  I received a wealth
of information and it looks like we will definitely make this trip, if
not this season then perhaps next year.  Thanks again.

-Sean
m/y Vector
lying Emerald Bay, Great Exuma, BS