Empathy List Archives

R

rayvincent@coxinet.net

Mon, Jun 13, 2022 4:46 PM

We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees. We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get job descriptions?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees. We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get job descriptions? Raymond A. Vincent Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 Del City, Oklahoma 73115 405-235-0484 Fax 405-236-3689 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

ML

Matt Love

Mon, Jun 13, 2022 4:58 PM

Personally, I'd provide it free of charge to the person in their capacity
as a member of the Council. Do you have to legally - I could argue "yes".
See 11 O.S. 10-106(3), (4) and (6):

All powers of a statutory council-manager city, including the determination
of matters of policy, shall be vested in the council. Without limitation of
the foregoing, the council may: ...

Raise revenue, make appropriations, regulate salaries and wages, and all
other fiscal affairs of the city, subject to such limitations as may now or
hereafter be imposed by the Oklahoma Constitution and law;
Inquire into the conduct of any office, department or agency of the
city, and investigate municipal affairs, or authorize and provide for such
inquiries; ...
Create, change and abolish offices, departments and agencies other than
those established by law, and assign additional functions and duties to
offices, departments and agencies established by this article;

One could argue that, to exercise these powers effectively, the Council may
need to understand the work that's being done and the distribution of that
workload within the workforce. I fully understand the concern that is
inherent within the question (i.e. only wanting descriptions for certain
employees). But that goes to the distinction between whether they have a
right to access the record as a Councilmember and how they might use that
information after reviewing it.

Matt

On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 11:47 AM rayvincent@coxinet.net wrote:

We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees.
We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him
make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a
councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get
job descriptions?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail
messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain
information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission
is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this
transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or
use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission
is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error,
please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and
delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or
saving in any manner. Thank you.

--
Oama mailing list -- oama@lists.imla.org
To unsubscribe send an email to oama-leave@lists.imla.org

Personally, I'd provide it free of charge to the person in their capacity as a member of the Council. Do you have to legally - I could argue "yes". See 11 O.S. 10-106(3), (4) and (6): All powers of a statutory council-manager city, including the determination of matters of policy, shall be vested in the council. Without limitation of the foregoing, the council may: ... 3. Raise revenue, make appropriations, regulate salaries and wages, and all other fiscal affairs of the city, subject to such limitations as may now or hereafter be imposed by the Oklahoma Constitution and law; 4. Inquire into the conduct of any office, department or agency of the city, and investigate municipal affairs, or authorize and provide for such inquiries; ... 6. Create, change and abolish offices, departments and agencies other than those established by law, and assign additional functions and duties to offices, departments and agencies established by this article; One could argue that, to exercise these powers effectively, the Council may need to understand the work that's being done and the distribution of that workload within the workforce. I fully understand the concern that is inherent within the question (i.e. only wanting descriptions for certain employees). But that goes to the distinction between whether they have a right to access the record as a Councilmember and how they might use that information after reviewing it. Matt On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 11:47 AM <rayvincent@coxinet.net> wrote: > We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees. > We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him > make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a > councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get > job descriptions? > > Raymond A. Vincent > Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC > 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 > Del City, Oklahoma 73115 > 405-235-0484 > Fax 405-236-3689 > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE > > This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail > messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain > information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission > is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are > not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to > the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this > transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or > use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission > is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, > please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and > delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or > saving in any manner. Thank you. > > -- > Oama mailing list -- oama@lists.imla.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oama-leave@lists.imla.org >

JB

Jeff Bryant

Mon, Jun 13, 2022 7:43 PM

While there may be many circumstances that might have led up to this request, the primary issue appears to be a need for more understanding of the role of a Council member in a Council/Manager form of government. This is an issue that a City employee should not be tasked with solving.

As far as requiring an open records request and charging for the copies, there are lots of layers of understanding that must be achieved to answer that. Is the Council member making the request as a citizen. Regularly kept Job descriptions are certainly public records. Is the requestor a member of the news media, or requesting to determine whether public money is being properly spent, or is there some other fact that would counsel against charging a fee.

But, again, struggling with whether an Open Records Request should be made at all, and then should the fee be charged seems to be chasing resolution of the issue from the wrong direction. And maybe there is a good reason for requesting the job description that is not related to directly attempting to supervise the employee. This seems to be an issue the City Manager should work out with the Councilmember. Determining the purpose for the request would seem to be key to resolution of the issue. Hope this helps.

Jeff

Jeff H Bryant
Director of Legal Services
Associate General Counsel
jbryant@omag.org mailto:jbryant@omag.org

[OMAG Small Logo Smooth]
3650 S. Boulevard
Edmond, Oklahoma 73013
Phone: 405-657-1419
Fax: 405-657-1401
Cell: 405-830-8672
www.omag.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.omag.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cksesock%40omag.org%7C7b0af7708d2145459d0008d5d005912d%7Cb13aadd514d84b918cf485be9d556ad7%7C1%7C0%7C636643644718063768&sdata=O5U4CEM0kJLxSbEQIcdB%2BtRnRqcj9gWhJquY26D8F1o%3D&reserved=0

From: rayvincent@coxinet.net rayvincent@coxinet.net
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 11:46 AM
To: OAMA oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Council members records requst

We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees. We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get job descriptions?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

While there may be many circumstances that might have led up to this request, the primary issue appears to be a need for more understanding of the role of a Council member in a Council/Manager form of government. This is an issue that a City employee should not be tasked with solving. As far as requiring an open records request and charging for the copies, there are lots of layers of understanding that must be achieved to answer that. Is the Council member making the request as a citizen. Regularly kept Job descriptions are certainly public records. Is the requestor a member of the news media, or requesting to determine whether public money is being properly spent, or is there some other fact that would counsel against charging a fee. But, again, struggling with whether an Open Records Request should be made at all, and then should the fee be charged seems to be chasing resolution of the issue from the wrong direction. And maybe there is a good reason for requesting the job description that is not related to directly attempting to supervise the employee. This seems to be an issue the City Manager should work out with the Councilmember. Determining the purpose for the request would seem to be key to resolution of the issue. Hope this helps. Jeff Jeff H Bryant Director of Legal Services Associate General Counsel jbryant@omag.org<mailto:jbryant@omag.org> [OMAG Small Logo Smooth] 3650 S. Boulevard Edmond, Oklahoma 73013 Phone: 405-657-1419 Fax: 405-657-1401 Cell: 405-830-8672 www.omag.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.omag.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cksesock%40omag.org%7C7b0af7708d2145459d0008d5d005912d%7Cb13aadd514d84b918cf485be9d556ad7%7C1%7C0%7C636643644718063768&sdata=O5U4CEM0kJLxSbEQIcdB%2BtRnRqcj9gWhJquY26D8F1o%3D&reserved=0> From: rayvincent@coxinet.net <rayvincent@coxinet.net> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 11:46 AM To: OAMA <oama@lists.imla.org> Subject: [Oama] Council members records requst We have a city councilman asking for job descriptions for some employees. We are a council manager form of government. The clerks are making him make an open records request and making him pay the page fee. Should a councilman in this situation have to make an open records request to get job descriptions? Raymond A. Vincent Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 Del City, Oklahoma 73115 405-235-0484 Fax 405-236-3689 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.