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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:27:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: bill wcz4399@yahoo.com
Subject: Lightning-motorsailers-passagemakers
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com.
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I'll express my ignorance here, what is, say,
Nordhavn's theory and approach to a lightning strike?

And the List's thoughts?

I've been hit once on a sailboat, about $5,000 US, am
currently planning provision for the same on a
cruising powerboat.

Thanks,
Bill
powercat 'Hero'

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Bill asked:  what is, say,Nordhavn's theory and approach to a lightning
strike?

While I can't speak for Mr. Nordhavn, I can say PAE provides a lightning
staff and fuzzy static head at the top of the mast, along with copper wire
that runs to the keel where it's attached to a plate for dissipation of the
charge.  I'm probably not using the right terms, but it is part of every
boat I believe?  I don't know anyone that's taken a direct hit, I can ask on
the Nordhavn forum and see what results.

Scott

My Nordhavn has a lightning rod, and ground plate. I believe all Nordhavns
have this, but it might be an option...

I did speak with Mickey Smith, Nordhavn's electrical guru, about lightning,
and whether or not there was anything else I can do. He couldn't think of
anything more that I should consider. I also read everything I could find on
the net and in books. I haven't been through the links yet that were just
posted on this list, but suspect they will be consistent with the
oft-conflicting information I've already been through.

The bottom line seems to be that there is no "for sure" solution. It's luck
of the draw. If you get a bad strike you can have a hole in your boat, or
worse, and even in a slight strike, you are likely to lose some or all
electronics.

I've heard alternating opinions on things like putting sat phones, wrapped
in tin foil (or rubber, or both) into safes. I think it was Mickey who said
something like "I doubt it makes a difference, but, hey - why not try it? It
might work. There really isn't enough data to say one way or the other." I
couldn't even find any statistical research which showed that lightning rods
and ground plates make a difference (although I definitely want one!)

Thus far, the only thing I've found that really works is to avoid being in
places where there is lightning. Were it not for lightning, I suspect I'd
have a home in the Bahamas now. We loved cruising there last summer, except
for the incessant lightning, which drove our dog crazy.

-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com

As a lineman of 20 years I learned to live with lightning. #1, it's just
high voltage electricity, #2 do you try to avoid it or deal with it, #3 if
you decide to deal with it (attracters and dissapaters) can you handle it #4
if you decide to avoid it (isolation/insulation, my preference) how to
dissapate a hit. Back in the day, every farm house and barn had  lightning
rods, spiral copper cables, ground rods at every corner, etc. It set more
barns and houses on fire than it saved, fact. If your going to attract it
you better be able to deal with it. I would think that a metal mast with
metal cables and fish (stabilizers) in the water would be the best, forming
basically a "cage" around the boat so the energy wouldn't be jumping into
your circuits onboard and using it as a ride to ground. Most lightning does
not come down, as a "bolt from heaven". The flash you see is the breakdown
of the current path, not the strike, that is a ionized column that can move
energy. It looks for the path of least resistance, and if your fiberglass
boat has a big copper plate on it's bottom attached to a big copper wire
that is 30 feet higher than anything else tied to a copper "fuzzy" guess
what, you're the path, can you handle it.

From: "Ken Williams" kenw@seanet.com
Reply-To: kenw@seanet.com, Passagemaking Under Power
Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: scottebulger@comcast.net, "'Passagemaking Under Power
List'"passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Lightning-motorsailers-passagemakers
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:17:23 -0700

My Nordhavn has a lightning rod, and ground plate. I believe all Nordhavns
have this, but it might be an option...

I did speak with Mickey Smith, Nordhavn's electrical guru, about lightning,
and whether or not there was anything else I can do. He couldn't think of
anything more that I should consider. I also read everything I could find on
the net and in books. I haven't been through the links yet that were just
posted on this list, but suspect they will be consistent with the
oft-conflicting information I've already been through.

The bottom line seems to be that there is no "for sure" solution. It's luck
of the draw. If you get a bad strike you can have a hole in your boat, or
worse, and even in a slight strike, you are likely to lose some or all
electronics.

I've heard alternating opinions on things like putting sat phones, wrapped
in tin foil (or rubber, or both) into safes. I think it was Mickey who said
something like "I doubt it makes a difference, but, hey - why not try it? It
might work. There really isn't enough data to say one way or the other." I
couldn't even find any statistical research which showed that lightning rods
and ground plates make a difference (although I definitely want one!)

Thus far, the only thing I've found that really works is to avoid being in
places where there is lightning. Were it not for lightning, I suspect I'd
have a home in the Bahamas now. We loved cruising there last summer, except
for the incessant lightning, which drove our dog crazy.

-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the
subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below:

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A submarine, with ballast and a mast and sail rig to match, would be a great
sailing boat, no windage. A powered passagemaker, with a big old bow for
busting waves and a pilothouse for watching it happen in comfort, and all
the things we want on a boat, would not make a good sailboat, to much
windage. Sailing purists disdain the hard pilothouse for just that reason,
to much drag. My old Krogen has a very easily driven hull, but the BIG bow
will negate any sailing abilty except downwind. I really can't see that a
good compromize can be made. Either you have a sailboat, that can sail, or a
powerboat that can power. I will agree that some sailboats don't sail to
good and the same for some powerboats, they don't power to good, but it's
the compromises that make them that way. I still don't know why we are
discussing sail options on powerboats. On the Woodenboat forum, fiberglass
is occasionally brought up and nixed quickly, that's not what they are
about. There are plenty of sail only forums out there that love to talk
about, and to, winbags.

From: "bob england" bob_england@hotmail.com
Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power
Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Lightning-motorsailers-passagemakers
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:50:07 +0000

As a lineman of 20 years I learned to live with lightning. #1, it's just
high voltage electricity, #2 do you try to avoid it or deal with it, #3 if
you decide to deal with it (attracters and dissapaters) can you handle it #4
if you decide to avoid it (isolation/insulation, my preference) how to
dissapate a hit. Back in the day, every farm house and barn had  lightning
rods, spiral copper cables, ground rods at every corner, etc. It set more
barns and houses on fire than it saved, fact. If your going to attract it
you better be able to deal with it. I would think that a metal mast with
metal cables and fish (stabilizers) in the water would be the best, forming
basically a "cage" around the boat so the energy wouldn't be jumping into
your circuits onboard and using it as a ride to ground. Most lightning does
not come down, as a "bolt from heaven". The flash you see is the breakdown
of the current path, not the strike, that is a ionized column that can move
energy. It looks for the path of least resistance, and if your fiberglass
boat has a big copper plate on it's bottom attached to a big copper wire
that is 30 feet higher than anything else tied to a copper "fuzzy" guess
what, you're the path, can you handle it.

From: "Ken Williams" kenw@seanet.com
Reply-To: kenw@seanet.com, Passagemaking Under Power
Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: scottebulger@comcast.net, "'Passagemaking Under Power
List'"passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Lightning-motorsailers-passagemakers
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:17:23 -0700

My Nordhavn has a lightning rod, and ground plate. I believe all Nordhavns
have this, but it might be an option...

I did speak with Mickey Smith, Nordhavn's electrical guru, about lightning,
and whether or not there was anything else I can do. He couldn't think of
anything more that I should consider. I also read everything I could find on
the net and in books. I haven't been through the links yet that were just
posted on this list, but suspect they will be consistent with the
oft-conflicting information I've already been through.

The bottom line seems to be that there is no "for sure" solution. It's luck
of the draw. If you get a bad strike you can have a hole in your boat, or
worse, and even in a slight strike, you are likely to lose some or all
electronics.

I've heard alternating opinions on things like putting sat phones, wrapped
in tin foil (or rubber, or both) into safes. I think it was Mickey who said
something like "I doubt it makes a difference, but, hey - why not try it? It
might work. There really isn't enough data to say one way or the other." I
couldn't even find any statistical research which showed that lightning rods
and ground plates make a difference (although I definitely want one!)

Thus far, the only thing I've found that really works is to avoid being in
places where there is lightning. Were it not for lightning, I suspect I'd
have a home in the Bahamas now. We loved cruising there last summer, except
for the incessant lightning, which drove our dog crazy.

-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the
subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below:

mailto:passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com

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Presents today.
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Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the
subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below:

mailto:passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com

Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

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http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07

Having gone through a near strike with no one on board, I know that it knock
out all electrical and electronic things. My Pacific Seacraft 37 did not
have a lightning ground. An ICOM in-line fuse exploded and drove fragment
into the teak woodwork.

I did my reading and decided the only thing that I could do was protect
people on board in the future. I grounded the mast to a separate sintered
bronze plate. No other adornment save for the plate and a big cable.
Everything else is contested theory.

Ron Rogers

Warning: the following is absolutely, positively, my last comment on the
whole sailing thing -- and, I came very close to hitting the delete button
before the send button... Read at your own risk.

Bob:

Just after I had successfully suppressed the urge to say anything further
about sailboats, your email popped in. My apologies for tossing another pile
of words onto this already too deep heap, but the whole topic of backup
systems is one I am highly sensitive to.

This subject happened to be on my mind when this email exchange started,
because last week I was looking out the window at a 60' plus motor-sailor
anchored in front of my house, that looked stunning. Beamy, comfortable,
rugged, etc. I wasn't so impressed I'd consider it over my Nordhavn, but it
did start me thinking.

It brought the following thoughts to my mind:

1. Lightning is fairly common and can knock out all electrical systems on a
   boat (Most of us know at least one boat that has been hit by lightning)
2. Being without power at sea can wreck your whole day
3. A sea anchor, until you can drop a real anchor, is probably the best
   solution if you can't get the engines going (my thought anyhow)
4. It takes a really tiny amount of horsepower to move a trawler through the
   water, and at least for me, sitting still seems like a bad thing

It's this last point that really had me thinking. An interesting stat: my
Nordhavn 68, which weighs a ton (actually 100 of them) can be moved through
the water with only 50 horsepower. If you look at the engines that they put
into 30 to 40 foot sailboats, you see 40 to 50HP motors oft-times, and they
can move the boats at roughly the same speeds as a 15 knot breeze. (Please
feel free to correct me on this, as I am not even remotely a sailor). I
understand about the differences in displacement, beam, windage, etc -- but,
50hp is 50hp. If I can get 50hp propelling my boat forward, it is going to
move. In fact, my boat, at least according to the projections, should move
at roughly 5 or 6 knots, in flat water, if I could find a way to put 50hp to
work shoving it forward (from behind).

Interestingly, 700 sq feet of sail (I'm ballparking) can do the same for a
sailboat. I'm trying to look at this mathematically, which may be the wrong
approach.. but, I'm still not clear on what I'm missing... Intuitively I
know that it doesn't work, and that it is a total waste of effort to even
think about -- but, it bugged me that I couldn't immediately see the flaw in
my thinking.

The amount of push (let's call it horsepower) from a sail varies with its'
angle of attack to the wind. Running downwind is going to give the most
power. Running into the wind will give the least. Sailors keep speed up by
tacking. How close a sailboat can sail to the direction of the wind is a
function of the "efficiency" of the sailboat. Really efficient sailboats can
run virtually into the wind. This is primarily because they have very little
friction, weigh almost nothing, and require virtually no "horsepower" to
keep moving. I do not believe they are generating extra thrust - they just
require less energy to move through the water.

OK .. so, what is my point? My only point, to the extent I have one, is that
trawlers are very efficient, perhaps not as efficient as even the worst of
sailboats, but even big trawlers can move through the water with an
amazingly low amount of horsepower. They don't move fast, but they move.
Sails do generate horsepower, and use no electricity. If you have no
electricity, your only options are: 1) Move, and 2) Sit still. Without a
sail, your sole option is #2 in this list. Were it possible, I'd be a fan of
moving, even if I had to move like a slug, and tack like crazy to get
anywhere interesting. Sitting still just isn't in my nature.

All of this said -- I have no plan to buy any sort of sail for my boat, or
to even burn further brain cells thinking about it. Unless of course I'm
ever struck by lightning, 1,000 miles from land, and ....

-Ken W
Nordhavn68.com

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces+kenw=seanet.com@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces+kenw=seanet.com@lists.samurai.com]
On Behalf Of bob england
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:14 PM
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PUP] Passagemakers under power, and sails

A submarine, with ballast and a mast and sail rig to match, would be a great

sailing boat, no windage. A powered passagemaker, with a big old bow for
busting waves and a pilothouse for watching it happen in comfort, and all
the things we want on a boat, would not make a good sailboat, to much
windage. Sailing purists disdain the hard pilothouse for just that reason,
to much drag. My old Krogen has a very easily driven hull, but the BIG bow
will negate any sailing abilty except downwind. I really can't see that a
good compromize can be made. Either you have a sailboat, that can sail, or a

powerboat that can power. I will agree that some sailboats don't sail to
good and the same for some powerboats, they don't power to good, but it's
the compromises that make them that way. I still don't know why we are
discussing sail options on powerboats. On the Woodenboat forum, fiberglass
is occasionally brought up and nixed quickly, that's not what they are
about. There are plenty of sail only forums out there that love to talk
about, and to, winbags.

A nordy68 is gonna drift, not sail. It has a lot of windage. If I can't make
a diesel engine run I'm a Du#$%ss and have no business being anywhere
offshore in a diesel powered boat.

From: "Ken Williams" kenw@seanet.com
Reply-To: kenw@seanet.com, Passagemaking Under Power
Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
To: "'Passagemaking Under Power
List'"passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Passagemakers under power, and sails
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:33:51 -0700

Warning: the following is absolutely, positively, my last comment on the
whole sailing thing -- and, I came very close to hitting the delete button
before the send button... Read at your own risk.

Bob:

Just after I had successfully suppressed the urge to say anything further
about sailboats, your email popped in. My apologies for tossing another pile
of words onto this already too deep heap, but the whole topic of backup
systems is one I am highly sensitive to.

This subject happened to be on my mind when this email exchange started,
because last week I was looking out the window at a 60' plus motor-sailor
anchored in front of my house, that looked stunning. Beamy, comfortable,
rugged, etc. I wasn't so impressed I'd consider it over my Nordhavn, but it
did start me thinking.

It brought the following thoughts to my mind:

1. Lightning is fairly common and can knock out all electrical systems on a
   boat (Most of us know at least one boat that has been hit by lightning)
2. Being without power at sea can wreck your whole day
3. A sea anchor, until you can drop a real anchor, is probably the best
   solution if you can't get the engines going (my thought anyhow)
4. It takes a really tiny amount of horsepower to move a trawler through the
   water, and at least for me, sitting still seems like a bad thing

It's this last point that really had me thinking. An interesting stat: my
Nordhavn 68, which weighs a ton (actually 100 of them) can be moved through
the water with only 50 horsepower. If you look at the engines that they put
into 30 to 40 foot sailboats, you see 40 to 50HP motors oft-times, and they
can move the boats at roughly the same speeds as a 15 knot breeze. (Please
feel free to correct me on this, as I am not even remotely a sailor). I
understand about the differences in displacement, beam, windage, etc -- but,
50hp is 50hp. If I can get 50hp propelling my boat forward, it is going to
move. In fact, my boat, at least according to the projections, should move
at roughly 5 or 6 knots, in flat water, if I could find a way to put 50hp to
work shoving it forward (from behind).

Interestingly, 700 sq feet of sail (I'm ballparking) can do the same for a
sailboat. I'm trying to look at this mathematically, which may be the wrong
approach.. but, I'm still not clear on what I'm missing... Intuitively I
know that it doesn't work, and that it is a total waste of effort to even
think about -- but, it bugged me that I couldn't immediately see the flaw in
my thinking.

The amount of push (let's call it horsepower) from a sail varies with its'
angle of attack to the wind. Running downwind is going to give the most
power. Running into the wind will give the least. Sailors keep speed up by
tacking. How close a sailboat can sail to the direction of the wind is a
function of the "efficiency" of the sailboat. Really efficient sailboats can
run virtually into the wind. This is primarily because they have very little
friction, weigh almost nothing, and require virtually no "horsepower" to
keep moving. I do not believe they are generating extra thrust - they just
require less energy to move through the water.

OK .. so, what is my point? My only point, to the extent I have one, is that
trawlers are very efficient, perhaps not as efficient as even the worst of
sailboats, but even big trawlers can move through the water with an
amazingly low amount of horsepower. They don't move fast, but they move.
Sails do generate horsepower, and use no electricity. If you have no
electricity, your only options are: 1) Move, and 2) Sit still. Without a
sail, your sole option is #2 in this list. Were it possible, I'd be a fan of
moving, even if I had to move like a slug, and tack like crazy to get
anywhere interesting. Sitting still just isn't in my nature.

All of this said -- I have no plan to buy any sort of sail for my boat, or
to even burn further brain cells thinking about it. Unless of course I'm
ever struck by lightning, 1,000 miles from land, and ....

-Ken W
Nordhavn68.com

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces+kenw=seanet.com@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces+kenw=seanet.com@lists.samurai.com]
On Behalf Of bob england
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:14 PM
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PUP] Passagemakers under power, and sails

A submarine, with ballast and a mast and sail rig to match, would be a great

sailing boat, no windage. A powered passagemaker, with a big old bow for
busting waves and a pilothouse for watching it happen in comfort, and all
the things we want on a boat, would not make a good sailboat, to much
windage. Sailing purists disdain the hard pilothouse for just that reason,
to much drag. My old Krogen has a very easily driven hull, but the BIG bow
will negate any sailing abilty except downwind. I really can't see that a
good compromize can be made. Either you have a sailboat, that can sail, or a

powerboat that can power. I will agree that some sailboats don't sail to
good and the same for some powerboats, they don't power to good, but it's
the compromises that make them that way. I still don't know why we are
discussing sail options on powerboats. On the Woodenboat forum, fiberglass
is occasionally brought up and nixed quickly, that's not what they are
about. There are plenty of sail only forums out there that love to talk
about, and to, winbags.

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the
subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below:

mailto:passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com

Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
Presents today.
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001