ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
The ESUG board currently considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
(see http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-June/066881.html).
We believe that Pharo is important for the Smalltalk ecosystem.
Note that ESUG is promoting Smalltalk in general and this action is in
the same vein as previous actions such as sponsoring local Smalltalk
groups (FAST, Catalan, Russian, …), Smalltalk dialects
(SqueakFoundation, etoy), development projects (Mars, DBXTalk, DrGeo
II, SqueakVirtual Machine cleaning), and books (Seaside and GNU book).
Before deciding, the board would like to gather feedback from the
community. We want to be clear that there is a strict distinction
between ESUG and Pharo (both consortium and association) even if some
people are involved in both.
What do you think?
--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
Damien,
On 4 July 2012 17:01, Damien Cassou damien.cassou@gmail.com wrote:
Before deciding, the board would like to gather feedback from the
community. We want to be clear that there is a strict distinction
between ESUG and Pharo (both consortium and association) even if some
people are involved in both.
how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of
communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo?
(I've been merely lurking on most mailing lists for quite a while now,
I haven't been following developments or discussions, I don't know any
more about people's Smalltalk-wise affiliations.)
Regards,
Michael
Hi Michael!
Good to see you back!
how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of
communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo?
In an ideal World, this would be indeed important.
However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small.
And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead.
Cheers,
Alexandre
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200
Von: Alexandre Bergel abergel@dcc.uchile.cl
An: Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com
CC: ESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
Hi Michael!
Good to see you back!
how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of
communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo?
In an ideal World, this would be indeed important.
However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG
board is really small.
Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election
process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling
"ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming
election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board
election" and you will find election results each year, plus each
candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more
transparency would certainly help here...
Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the
other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the
goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a
perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why
Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis,
or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could
certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and
presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of
funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing
out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor
a single fork of a single dialect.
Cheers,
- Andreas
And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead.
Cheers,
Alexandre
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
I left Squeak because I was "pissed away".
I have no problem to leave ESUG, too.
herewith I unsubscribe from the ESUG list.
Have Fun
Marcus
On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:13 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200
Von: Alexandre Bergel abergel@dcc.uchile.cl
An: Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com
CC: ESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
Hi Michael!
Good to see you back!
how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of
communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo?
In an ideal World, this would be indeed important.
However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small.
Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling "ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board election" and you will find election results each year, plus each candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more transparency would certainly help here...
Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect.
Cheers,
- Andreas
And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead.
Cheers,
Alexandre
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
On 2012-Jul-4, at 12:13 , Andreas Raab wrote:
If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect.
+1
../Dave
Ho ho this is not the proper place to discuss this. The ESUG board selection has always been done quite openly, but on the yearly conference, there is not even ground for any suspition, please. Andreas could you please discuss this with the board first before venting this on the open mailing list?
Op 4 jul. 2012 om 18:14 heeft Marcus Denker marcus.denker@inria.fr het volgende geschreven:
I left Squeak because I was "pissed away".
I have no problem to leave ESUG, too.
herewith I unsubscribe from the ESUG list.
Have Fun
Marcus
On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:13 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:33:12 +0200
Von: Alexandre Bergel abergel@dcc.uchile.cl
An: Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com
CC: ESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
Hi Michael!
Good to see you back!
how many people on the ESUG board can be considered representatives of
communities of Smalltalk dialects other than Pharo?
In an ideal World, this would be indeed important.
However the amount of people willing to actively participate in the ESUG board is really small.
Really? I don't recall anyone ever asking. In fact, the whole election process of the ESUG board is a complete mystery to me personally. Googling "ESUG board election" nets me a message from 2002(!) about an upcoming election, that's it. Compare this say, with googling "Squeak board election" and you will find election results each year, plus each candidates announcement, discussions, vote counts etc. A bit more transparency would certainly help here...
Regarding the original question, I think such a membership is unfair to the other open source communities. Sponsoring of specific projects with the goal of fostering the overall Smalltalk community is one thing, paying a perpetual "Pharo tax" quite another. I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation. The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect.
Cheers,
- Andreas
And being a small community should not prevent us from moving ahead.
Cheers,
Alexandre
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Hi,
On 4 July 2012 18:36, Rob Vens rob.vens@reflektis.com wrote:
Ho ho this is not the proper place to discuss this. The ESUG board selection has always been done quite openly, but on the yearly conference, there is not even ground for any suspition, please.
that is completely correct: the boards are elected by acclamation
(usually) when the community is gathered at the conference. IMHO this
is as transparent as it gets. Nothing to complain there. Well, yes,
the procedure could be mentioned on the web page, but the process is
OK.
Best,
Michael
[ this is my personal opinion. I may be wrong, but I do not think so ]
I do not see a compelling reason why Pharo should be supported in such a way by ESUG and not GST, Squeak, Cuis, or any other open source Smalltalk implementation.
There is no reason. Pharo will get a sponsor because people behind Pharo asked for it, in the same way that people behind GST asked.
The money could certainly be used by the other projects for activities like going to and presenting at the ESUG conferences which is often not done for lack of funding. If ESUG wants to sponsor open source Smalltalk dialects by handing out money directly, it should do so fairly and transparently and not favor a single fork of a single dialect.
I am pretty sure that if the Squeak community, or any other community set up a nice and reasonable proposal, the esug board will consider it.
This discussion reminds me a large project that got founded recently in Chile. Everybody said they are interested in participating (and receiving money), but only a very few actually made up a clear, concise and promising proposal. Not that they were not included in the discussion and the regular meetings. The persons who did not receive the money "were too busy to write the proposal". Well... at the end they complained saying that it is not fair.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Alex,
let me clarify my point in response to yours.
You say that project X applied for sponsoring, and the board considers
this now. That is completely OK.
It just so happens that it might well be that (worst case) 100 % of
the ESUG board members are also project X community members (some of
them even in positions that could fairly be called leadership
positions). In that case, the decision of the board would - whatever
the outcome - be biased due to a conflict of interest, and a decision
in favour of project X would have a strong smell of nepotism.
Hence my original question. Which still has not been answered. Before
I can give an answer to Damien's (the ESUG board's) question, I need
to know that to come to a conclusion.
Your initial response to my question does not count as an answer: I
did not want to engage in any philosophical discussions about ideal
worlds, I did not want to start any flame wars or make ESUG board
members leave this list. Not. My. Plan. Preferably, I'd like to know
which communities are actually represented by the body that leads /
governs / whatevers this community-spanning organisation.
Best,
Michael