Il 05/07/2012 08:47, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto:

No Stephane, it's not that.  Part of it is just misinformation and I
think that was clarified; the other part is just basic handling of
conflict of interest, and I think it's in ESUG's interest to keep its
usual level of transparency.

Paolo

Thanks damien. I know what we did for smalltalk and for Squeak in particular. My names is written on a lot of what I did.
Sadly I should have done the same in Java my h-index would be much higher :)

There is a lesson in that story. Doing and been successful always make people jaleous. Apparently Smalltalk is in so good condition that it is
good to shoot on one of the few organization promoting it. So I was considering looking at Javascript or Lua and may be this is the time to do that and
let the sunday and happy small talkers (in the literal sense) have fun.

I will check that. Marcus quitted the esug-list so this is an indication of the sickness of this wonderful community.

Stef

On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:

... thanks, Paolo, I was about to write that.

Best,

Michael

On 5 July 2012 08:49, Paolo Bonzini bonzini@gnu.org wrote:

On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote:

Why did we send the mail if this is not about that?
Now I see so much frustration in some mails that I laugh a lot.
Personally when I wake up the morning I feel good and I know that I'm doing a good
job for my community. Now may be I should do something else.

I also really like the mails from people that never put on finger in the ESUG conference
and that do not know what is it to organize it, promote Smalltalk, give lecture worldwide and
other little things like writing stupid books.
Anyway I'm leaving on vacation and let people have fun.

Stef

Dear Michael

How are you doing these days?

People can propose themselves. Now they should show that they are not applying to show themselves.
So the board will value their accomplishment for the community.
For example, we appreciated so much the work of alain and jordi for the organization of esug at Brest and Barcelona
that we ask them if they had some energy left for ESUG.

Now it should be clear that we do not want a bad fruit in the basket because this would break ESUG board gentle and respectful
atmosphere. We are doing that on our free time and it takes a lot lot lot and lot of energy and time.
So the atmosphere of the board should be friendly, respectful. We experienced some problems in the past
with the organization of some satellites events and we learned the hard way.
ESUG is about positive energy around Smalltalk.

It should be either 2000 Euros or 4000 Euros or around that level.

Notice that nobody ever complained when ESUG supported the work of John McIntosh to clean
a bit the Squeak Virtual machine and it was more if I recall correctly.
Now was it not in the global interest to have a stronger open-source community?

May be not. ESUG decided to give a chance.
May be people prefer that we do all our research and teaching in python, Javascript or Ruby?
Who knows. I'm not in the mind of people and I'm happy about it :).

Have a nice day.

Michael Haupt-3 wrote

Just curious, do you ask because you contribute funds or are you just
stirring the pot?

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ESUG-considers-sponsoring-the-Pharo-Consortium-tp4638238p4638406.html
Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Il 05/07/2012 08:59, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto:

Sending email about this is great, because it makes the community part
of the decisions.  But it doesn't eliminate the conflict of interest
inside the board.  Note that CoI is not a problem, it is a fact of life,
but it must be handled properly.

When you are a member of an academic program committee, you are asked to
leave when your paper is being discussed.  We are asking for something
similar in the context of the ESUG board; again, it is standard practice
and I don't see why there should be any opposition to this.

If I were a member of the ESUG board, I certainly would do the same on
any decision that mentioned GNU Smalltalk.

I believe that you are; for both Pharo and ESUG.  And I believe
everybody knows the effort that you put into promotion of Smalltalk.
But you shouldn't take things too personally: your effort requires you
to be more careful about not pissing people off, not less. :)

Paolo

Geert,

On 5 July 2012 09:14, Geert Claes geert.wl.claes@gmail.com wrote:

I'm interested, that's all. Really.

Best,

Michael

Hi Stéphane,

On 5 July 2012 09:07, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr wrote:

living happily in Java-land - yes, that is possible ;-) -, not having
abandoned Smalltalk at all.
Details: http://labs.oracle.com/projects/maxine

Thanks for clarifying. How long are terms?

I know. There has been learning on both ends of the story, I presume,
and one particular insight might have been that communication always
has two ends with potential to fail, and that putting all blame on one
end only merely reveals half the truth.

One of the corporate sponsorships then; I could have figured that one
myself. :-P

Regards,

Michael

BTW since everybody wants to give lessons here is our internal process. A board member never votes when he has a
conflict of interest. For example when a student applies for an article sponsoring (even 150 Euros), if a board member is in the group of the student
or may have  any conflict of interest, the board member does not take part of the discussion or the voting process.
This is always like that.

Now as a good exercise for our little community, it would be good that everybody check what he did recently not for its own little
assets (my little program my precious my little business my precious) but for somebody else asset.
I wrote and edited the seaside book and I should have better wrote something on ruby on rails
because we earned a ridiculous amount of money and it was 4 years of work (but this does not count) and I pushed so that we get
all dialects represented, while I could have simply focus on Pharo.
Similarly, we sponsored conferences like FAST and Smalltalk Solutions, summerTalk projects, user groups and we are systematically promoting Smalltalk.

Now I'm a bit worried about some reactions especially the rhetorical part of them. It seems to me
that in our community we do not like success - probably because this is better to be the king of a small castle than
a knight in a kingdom. Personally I would prefer to be able to build graphical system like D3 in Javascript with my Smalltalk but I cannot. So may be Javascript is
the future of any smart smalltalker.

Personally I want the success of Smalltalk and I built the tools to make it happen. Pharo is one of such tool. We built pharo because the tools in presence
were not there to push the way we wanted. Just for your information, we are making pharo not for US but for people to be able to
make money with it. Now if somebody would come, fork pharo and make our dream reality by being better than pharo we would
be more than happy. Why because doing pharo is a pain. People complain, doing is slow, we have other agendas.

I'm talking with lawyers INRIA since two years for the consortium. INRIA put 180 Keuros for pharo on the table and we are negotiating to get another 60 K.
Our little team will also put 30 Keuros plus a massive amount of our free hours.  Of course smart people can think that this is because this is for us. No it is not,
we are building pharo for the community. In fact I would like to build other systems than pharo but so far the state of the system
implementations does not let us experiment (proprietary or old systems), so we are basically forced to build pharo if we want to invent our future.
May be some people do not want to have a future. But we do. Now you can not trust us or be against it this is your rights.

So it would be a problem that ESUG the organization promoting Smalltalk has a problem
to pay 2000/4000 Euros, when I see what our group is putting or INRIA.
Seriously, if this is the case we should really be clear about that and rethink what is ESUG and also probably do something else of our free time.

Stef

On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: