ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly stevek@metacase.com wrote:
Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
here are the members of the ESUG's board:
President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo
Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo
Damien Cassou <- Pharo
Jordi Delgado <- Pharo
Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo
Alain Plantec <- Pharo
Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits
Just one little note:
AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo.
Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny.
I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only
with conflict here, but i am not a member of board,
and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of
that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision.
As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is
consistent with that.. or i miss something?
If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct
personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to
sponsor Pharo?
They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life,
which they would rather spend with their family?
As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there
other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better
promoting smalltalk
than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher
priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision
should and must be argued.
But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold
money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission..
I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such
decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else
than: promoting smalltalk.
If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest.
So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :).
No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it.
Go Smalltalk!
Steve
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Being accused of conflicting interest is not very nice to hear, so please those of you concerned stay above that and with us.
Well, this is something that should be avoided. But again, the community is so small, that is hard to avoid. We almost have permanent interest conflict in the research track of esug.
I never used Pharo, But If the ESUG board decided to sponsor it, than I just respect their choice.
I hardly see how supporting Pharo can be seen as unfair. Improving Pharo will help the whole Smalltalk community. It looks like clear to me.
Cheers,
Alexandre
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
I think there's a misunderstanding about what "conflict of interest" means. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It doesn't mean they are abusing their power. It doesn't mean they would get money through it. All it means is that they have an interest in the matter at hand, in addition to their role on the board.
In academic circles, often you can't review a paper if you have been a co-author with one of its authors in the last N years. That's a similar kind of thing - nobody's saying that because of that, you'd accept the paper, or would be incapable of being objective, or the paper's authors would pay you(!). It's just agreed that it's better if you don't review it.
One of the reasons why people with "conflicts of interest" don't get to vote or take part in the discussion, is that people with an extra interest are likely to get annoyed with the discussion. That's bad for the community - those people may be demotivated, and the rest may feel less trust in their board.
In any case, as far as I understand it, the ESUG board makes decisions about sponsorship - not the ESUG membership. They've heard our opinions, both for and against, and they can go ahead and make their decision. I for one will support them, whatever they decide. Not because as individuals they've done so much for Smalltalk, for so little reward, but because they're smart people who we've trusted to make ESUG decisions on our behalf.
All the best,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Stasenko [mailto:siguctua@gmail.com]
Sent: 5. heinäkuuta 2012 12:22
To: Steven Kelly; ESUG Mailing list
Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly stevek@metacase.com wrote:
Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question,
about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a
quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which
Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and
I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please,
please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what
the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
here are the members of the ESUG's board:
President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo
Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo
Damien Cassou <- Pharo
Jordi Delgado <- Pharo
Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo
Alain Plantec <- Pharo
Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various
Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving
most hits
Just one little note:
AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo.
Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny.
I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only
with conflict here, but i am not a member of board,
and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of
that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision.
As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is
consistent with that.. or i miss something?
If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct
personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to
sponsor Pharo?
They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life,
which they would rather spend with their family?
As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there
other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better
promoting smalltalk
than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher
priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision
should and must be argued.
But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold
money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission..
I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such
decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else
than: promoting smalltalk.
If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it
is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand
why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to
mention potential conflicts of interest.
So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link?
First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something
for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's
brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk
in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a
sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list
may be a little tense :).
No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing,
and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG
sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully
nobody gets upset about it.
Go Smalltalk!
Steve
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Hi everyone. Way back in the 1990s there were two publications floating around:
Doug Shaker used to run 'The Smalltalk Store' and produced some nice hard copy magazines called 'The Smalltalk Gazette'
I have three of these - Vol 2 Issue 1 and Volume 3 Issue 1 & 2. - May 1995, March 1996 and 'Summer' 1996
I have 8 copies of 'The Smalltalk Report' - as follows:
Feb. 1992 Vol.1 No.5
Sep. 1994 Vol. 4 No. 1
March - April 1995 Vol.4 No. 4 (Photocopy)
Feb. 1995 Vol. 4 No.5
May 1995 Vol 4 No. 7
July/August 1995 Vol.4 No. 9
Feb. 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6
March - April 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 (i know this is a duplication in date but it is a different magazine).
These have articles by the likes of Kent Beck, Alan Knight and Jay Almarode.
These are available to the first one to request them:
***** However, together they weight 1.2 kilos so postage will be quite expensive and I must ask the taker to pay that.
UK £6.00, Europe, £9.00 and Rest of the world £17.00 (these are actual Royal Mail small packet charges).
I would need paying by Paypal but if you don't have a Paypal account, you can still use their service to pay by credit card on a one off basis.
I would send you an invoice which makes it easier.
Private e-mail to david@totallyobjects will secure.
DavidESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org
David Pennington
Totally Objects
The Smalltalk Specialists
Hi Damien,
On 5 July 2012 10:40, Damien Cassou damien.cassou@gmail.com wrote:
You are right, we should improve our communication and probably have a
dedicated web page, let me add that to my todo list :-).
feel free to use as much of the text below as you like.
Number of Seats and Terms
The ESUG Board has, in theory, an unlimited number of seats. More
helping hands are always welcome. Board members' terms are also
unlimited; in general, they step down as they see fit.
Eligibility and Nomination
Each community member - that is, every Smalltalker - is eligible for
ESUG Board membership if they are willing to devote a certain amount
of time to community matters (reviewing funding proposals, taking care
of web pages and servers, managing finances and conferences, etc.).
Board members are self-nominated: who intends to join the board should
send an e-mail to the board (board@esug.org [??]) and/or the ESUG
members list (esug-list@lists.esug.org) introducing themselves.
Election
Board members are elected directly by the gathered community in a
plenary session at an ESUG conference.
Best,
Michael
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Michael Haupt mhaupt@gmail.com wrote:
feel free to use as much of the text below as you like.
thank you very much Michael, I appreciate a lot. We will discuss your
text on the board mailing list and I will update the website. Thank
you again.
--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
Hi,
in response to Damien's original question:
On 4 July 2012 17:01, Damien Cassou damien.cassou@gmail.com wrote:
What do you think?
Having learned about the processes involved, about the board's
policies for handling conflicts of interest, and its composition, I'm
fine with it.
I have to add that the amount of negative emotion triggered by the
question I asked for purely informational reasons has put me off a
bit. That was completely uncalled-for. "The wolfs are back" -
seriously, what is that supposed to mean? I understand the emotional
attachment of people to the work they do, but none of what I asked was
intended to start this.
Personally I'd like to see GST, VW, GemStone ... "people" on the board
some time. It would make ESUG's broad intentions more obvious. I'd
also love to be able to contribute more directly myself, which I can't
at this time.
Best,
Michael
On 05. 07. 2012 11:22, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly stevek@metacase.com wrote:
If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct
personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to
sponsor Pharo?
Because we are quite "opiniated" community it is clear what is a
personal benefit in that case :) Money is not the only thing someone can
benefit from...
What counts is how evenly ESUG is spreading its sponsorship around
Smalltalk projects. Because if ESUG sponsor Pharo, it can and it is
already sponsoring others too. So, is there one who asked for ESUG
sponsorship and was denied?
Let me ask directly (I'm a direct man, as those who know me, know very
well :) Is Squeak community asked for ESUG sponsorship recently?
Best regards
Janko
--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Hi guys,
One concrete proposal: let the ESUG board write a short report after
every meeting and decision like sponsoring some project. Like Squeak
board is doing regularly: http://squeakboard.wordpress.com/.
I'm pretty sure with such simple act most of suspicions expressed in
this thread will vanish immediately.
Best regards
Janko
On 05. 07. 2012 09:42, Marten Feldtmann wrote:
Stephane,
I see here more and more over-reactions and I quite do not understand
these reactions.
I can not believe, that posters here do not like the success of ESUG or
behave jealous in some way.
But ideas/contributions like the ones Paolo (and others) posted here are
still valid and I am more than surprised, that people are angry about it.
But you answered many questions and that is ok - and I've seen NO
posting here so far saying, that the ESUG members are doing their job
badly. ESUG has been done quite a good job in the past promoting
Smalltalk in various ways.
Marten
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Thank you - this has now been taken.
David Pennington
Totally Objects
The Smalltalk Specialists
On 5 Jul 2012, at 10:48, David Pennington wrote:
Hi everyone. Way back in the 1990s there were two publications floating around:
Doug Shaker used to run 'The Smalltalk Store' and produced some nice hard copy magazines called 'The Smalltalk Gazette'
I have three of these - Vol 2 Issue 1 and Volume 3 Issue 1 & 2. - May 1995, March 1996 and 'Summer' 1996
I have 8 copies of 'The Smalltalk Report' - as follows:
Feb. 1992 Vol.1 No.5
Sep. 1994 Vol. 4 No. 1
March - April 1995 Vol.4 No. 4 (Photocopy)
Feb. 1995 Vol. 4 No.5
May 1995 Vol 4 No. 7
July/August 1995 Vol.4 No. 9
Feb. 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6
March - April 1996 Vol. 5 No. 6 (i know this is a duplication in date but it is a different magazine).
These have articles by the likes of Kent Beck, Alan Knight and Jay Almarode.
These are available to the first one to request them:
***** However, together they weight 1.2 kilos so postage will be quite expensive and I must ask the taker to pay that.
UK £6.00, Europe, £9.00 and Rest of the world £17.00 (these are actual Royal Mail small packet charges).
I would need paying by Paypal but if you don't have a Paypal account, you can still use their service to pay by credit card on a one off basis.
I would send you an invoice which makes it easier.
Private e-mail to david@totallyobjects will secure.
DavidESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org
David Pennington
Totally Objects
The Smalltalk Specialists
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org