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JM

John M McIntosh

Thu, Jul 5, 2012 9:16 PM

As I see my name bantered about just a few too many times now, allow me to comment on this tomorrow as it does directly affect me. Since I'm about to start a 7 hour plane trip I don't have the time to give a proper comment right now.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 5, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr wrote:

As for the Squeak VM, first of all I have no clue who got sponsored by ESUG. Probably John Macintosh because I know neither me, nor Ian, nor Eliot, nor David, nor Dan, nor John ever got any support from ESUG.

It was officially announced by john

As I see my name bantered about just a few too many times now, allow me to comment on this tomorrow as it does directly affect me. Since I'm about to start a 7 hour plane trip I don't have the time to give a proper comment right now. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 5, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote: >> As for the Squeak VM, first of all I have no clue who got sponsored by ESUG. Probably John Macintosh because I know neither me, nor Ian, nor Eliot, nor David, nor Dan, nor John ever got any support from ESUG. > > It was officially announced by john

AR

Andreas Raab

Fri, Jul 6, 2012 6:12 AM

Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we
get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we
might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all
representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring
requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before
spending part of it.

Which is fine. And perhaps there is a really simple answer then: First,

sponsor all the projects that apply to ESUG. If, at the end of year,
there is money left, donate it based on the relative distribution of
projects over the year.

No we did not work like that and we will not work like that.
People send their requests and we evaluate the impact for the community.

But how does this statement go together with you proposing to send 4000EUR
a year to Pharo automatically and without anyone applying for it? Where is
the difference to what I just proposed? It seems to me that you've just
said that the very proposal you have been making is not "how we did work
and we will not work like that". And that's quite all right with me. I'm
all right with leaving the status quo, sponsoring specific projects after
they make their requests, and not have automated lump sum contributions.
But IF ESUG wants to make such contributions I expect them to be done
fairly and transparently, and not to favor one project at the expense of
other projects.

I will not continue this nice discussion because you like too much to
twist our arms.

And you still haven't learned how to have an insightful discussion with
someone who has a different opinion. Fortunately, Damien is less
preoccupied.

Cheers,
- Andreas

> >>Sponsoring Pharo won't affect other potential sponsoring (unless we > >> get 5 times more sponsoring requests than last year in which case we > >> might not positively answer to all of them). I invite all > >> representatives of other dialects to send the board sponsoring > >> requests. But we can't wait for all dialects to ask for money before > >> spending part of it. > > > > Which is fine. And perhaps there is a really simple answer then: First, > sponsor all the projects that apply to ESUG. If, at the end of year, > there is money left, donate it based on the relative distribution of > projects over the year. > > No we did not work like that and we will not work like that. > People send their requests and we evaluate the impact for the community. But how does this statement go together with you proposing to send 4000EUR a year to Pharo automatically and without anyone applying for it? Where is the difference to what I just proposed? It seems to me that you've just said that the very proposal you have been making is not "how we did work and we will not work like that". And that's quite all right with me. I'm all right with leaving the status quo, sponsoring specific projects after they make their requests, and not have automated lump sum contributions. But IF ESUG wants to make such contributions I expect them to be done fairly and transparently, and not to favor one project at the expense of other projects. > I will not continue this nice discussion because you like too much to > twist our arms. And you still haven't learned how to have an insightful discussion with someone who has a different opinion. Fortunately, Damien is less preoccupied. Cheers, - Andreas

SK

Steven Kelly

Fri, Jul 6, 2012 7:00 AM

Hi Stef,

You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions.

This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was
programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board
was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak
foundation.

I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions.

The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger
Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !!

I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press
and marketing. It would be really funny.
VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association
to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh
a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot.

Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past.

Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support.

Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG.

If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure.

All the best,
Steve

On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote:

Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question,

about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a
quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which
Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and
I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please,
please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what
the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:

here are the members of the ESUG's board:

President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo
Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo
Damien Cassou <- Pharo
Jordi Delgado <- Pharo
Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo
Alain Plantec <- Pharo
Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various

Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving
most hits

If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it

is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand
why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to
mention potential conflicts of interest.

So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link?

First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something
for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's
brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk
in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a
sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list
may be a little tense :).

No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing,

and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG
sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully
nobody gets upset about it.

Go Smalltalk!
Steve

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Hi Stef, You seem angry. Let's try to keep things civil and calm, even if we have different opinions. > This is fun nobody ever told us anything when the complete board was > programming in VW. And nobody told us anything when the complete board > was using Squeak. Strange no. And ESUG even manage money for the squeak > foundation. I think in some cases the reason is simply that we didn't know, or we weren't asked. If VW is the flagship Smalltalk as you said, it's not that surprising if sometimes the board has lots of VW users. But if the board was led by a Cincom manager, had top figures from within Cincom, and suggested paying 2000 EUR per year to Cincom "to foster business around VW and to promote VW", I think you would have some questions. >> The case for VW is easy you should give it in person to Holger >> Kleinsorgen for having written the Windows 7 Look and feel !! > > I would be really curious to see if cincom wants this kind of press > and marketing. It would be really funny. > VisualWorks the Smalltalk flagship sponsored by a free association > to develop better product. I'm not sure that it will make laugh > a lot of people but at least I would laugh a lot. Holger isn't a Cincom employee. His code is released for free to the Smalltalk community. Why would it be ridiculous to give a VW user 100-150€ once? That sounds like just the kind of project that ESUG has funded in the past. Personally I'm happiest with ESUG sponsorship going to individual Smalltalk users of any dialect, for projects that benefit other Smalltalkers. I'm happy to consider a project on the core of any particular dialect on its merits. But a large, repeating, non-earmarked sum of money to one dialect is something I am unlikely to support. Please, for the sake of both ESUG and Pharo, talk to the INRIA lawyers about this. IANAL, but I think you'd be risking your reputation and that of ESUG and Pharo, by being one of 3 Pharo board members, asking for money no strings attached, and then agreeing to that as the President of ESUG. If the lawyers are happy and the board decides to do this, that's fine by me, I just want to make sure. All the best, Steve > On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:35 AM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, > about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a > quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which > Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and > I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, > please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what > the real situation is. But for what little it's worth: > > > >> here are the members of the ESUG's board: > >> > >> President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo > >> Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo > >> Damien Cassou <- Pharo > >> Jordi Delgado <- Pharo > >> Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo > >> Alain Plantec <- Pharo > >> Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various > Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving > most hits > > > > If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it > is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand > why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to > mention potential conflicts of interest. > > > > So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? > First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something > for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's > brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk > in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a > sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list > may be a little tense :). > > > > No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, > and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG > sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully > nobody gets upset about it. > > > > Go Smalltalk! > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > Esug-list@lists.esug.org > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

MM

Maarten MOSTERT

Fri, Jul 6, 2012 8:28 AM

Steve,
I do not agree with you on all points. The fact that they (Stef) managed to convince INRIA to keep on spending about 200k€ year on Smalltalk must take them a huge effort. So the frustration is very much understandable. Critisizing is easy selling ideas however is about the most difficult thing to do, we all know that !
If you are looking for problems you invite the juridical guys we all know that too !! (and for 3000€ stop stop stop !!)
Besides maybe leaving my app as a free dwonload I do absolutely nothing for the community so what can I do else then just admire these guys !!!
Even for us as VW users the Pharo principles are really cool and I only hope they find their way to our phones and desktops the sooner the better !
Regards,
@+Maarten,

Message du 06/07/12 09:00
De : "Steven Kelly"
A : esug-list@lists.esug.org
Copie à :
Objet : Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium