Empathy List Archives

KB

KENT BRITAIN

Sat, Oct 22, 2016 5:11 PM

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale."

  From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server.

Randy WB8ART

-----Original Message-----
From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT
BRITAIN via mvus-list
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM
To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings.
If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed.
When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches.
If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal.
When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for.
Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands.
(Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!)
73 Kent

From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com
To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent and all,

I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years.

I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space.

I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more.

Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab.

73,

Dave, K4TO

On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:03 AM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com wrote:

- CC
-
- MVUS LIST

-

Hi Jim
This was my talk at CSVHFS this year.
It was a great opportunity to bring up the topic.
You want to get the 432 MHz beam out of the 144 MHz beamscapture area. But you have to get it out of it's 432 MHz capture area,not it's 144!!!! And at 432 MHz the typical 144 antenna has a capturearea of a few square inches! The old case of mixing apples and oranges.(New HiC fruit drink?)
And if this was true, you could never have mulit band beams.
We acturally tested this on the CSVHFS antenna range several years ago.You can get the antennas VERY close before gain changes.Now, if you are running high power and have driven elements close togetheryou might damage another rig, but this was good news for rovers with lots of antenna.73 WA5VJB

From: Jim Bacher via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com
To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net
Cc: MVUS LIST mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Kent, Gerd is always looking for single page items to put in the
newsletter to fill ten pages. When members do not submit enough he starts
looking for items on the Internet. Unfortunately that means "old" stuff
makes it in. In this case it makes good discussion material. All of us need
to consider writing single page items for him to publish in the newsletter.

Having purchased some of your antennas, I realize that you know a lot more
about antennas than I do so I have a question or maybe it is a comment.

I had to reread your comments a few times and relooked at the article. It
seems to me the article was trying to compare capture area differences
between different bands, but did so poorly. If a ham had a 144 and 432
antenna and was on both bands at the same time they would be using those
capture areas but at different frequencies. Although I do not see any value
in doing so, its not like the 432 antenna would take a chunk out of the 144
antennas capture area.

Seems it would have been of more value to show single band performance the
way you described it. Sort of a here is what it looks like at 144 and a
second here is what it looks like at 432. Showing they do not hurt the
other bands performances.

I suppose one should mount the lower band antenna high enough to get the
tower out of the capture area. Although I suspect there is not a lot of
value to doing so.

Jim
WB8VSU

On Oct 21, 2016 10:23 PM, "KENT BRITAIN" wa5vjb@flash.net wrote:

That article on capture areas of beams is old, we have been unable to find
out
where it came from. It was wrong 50 years ago, and it is wrong today!

You cannot compare 144 MHz and 432 MHz capture areas at the same time!
You must compare 144 MHz for both antennas, and 432 MHz for both antenna.
At which time the 432 beam on 144 MHz is about the size of a quarter.
Or 432 MHz where the 2 Meter beam has a capture area about the size of
a silver dollar.

IF this was true.
You CANNOT have Log periodics because all the capture areas overlap.

And all the people who have earned DXCC on HF with a good old Tribander
have to give those back as well, because you cannot have 20, 15, and 10
meter
aperture areas overlap!!!!

We have tested this on the antenna range, dissimilar antennas have little
interaction.

Kent WA5VJB

From: Jim Bacher via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com
To: MVUS LIST mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 8:47 PM
Subject: [mvus-list] MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

See attached copy of the MVUS Anomalous Propagation for October 2016.

If your email filters filter the file, you can get a copy in the archive at
the link at the bottom of the email.

Jim
wb8vsu@mvus.org

mvus-list mailing list
mvus-list@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale." From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server. Randy WB8ART -----Original Message----- From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings. If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed. When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches. If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal. When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for. Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands. (Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!) 73 Kent From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 Hi Kent and all, I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years. I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space. I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more. Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab. 73, Dave, K4TO > On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:03 AM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> wrote: > > > - CC > - > - MVUS LIST > > - > > > > Hi Jim > This was my talk at CSVHFS this year. > It was a great opportunity to bring up the topic. > You want to get the 432 MHz beam out of the 144 MHz beamscapture area. But you have to get it out of it's 432 MHz capture area,not it's 144!!!! And at 432 MHz the typical 144 antenna has a capturearea of a few square inches! The old case of mixing apples and oranges.(New HiC fruit drink?) > And if this was true, you could never have mulit band beams. > We acturally tested this on the CSVHFS antenna range several years ago.You can get the antennas VERY close before gain changes.Now, if you are running high power and have driven elements close togetheryou might damage another rig, but this was good news for rovers with lots of antenna.73 WA5VJB > > From: Jim Bacher via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> > Cc: MVUS LIST <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 8:05 AM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > Kent, Gerd is always looking for single page items to put in the > newsletter to fill ten pages. When members do not submit enough he starts > looking for items on the Internet. Unfortunately that means "old" stuff > makes it in. In this case it makes good discussion material. All of us need > to consider writing single page items for him to publish in the newsletter. > > Having purchased some of your antennas, I realize that you know a lot more > about antennas than I do so I have a question or maybe it is a comment. > > I had to reread your comments a few times and relooked at the article. It > seems to me the article was trying to compare capture area differences > between different bands, but did so poorly. If a ham had a 144 and 432 > antenna and was on both bands at the same time they would be using those > capture areas but at different frequencies. Although I do not see any value > in doing so, its not like the 432 antenna would take a chunk out of the 144 > antennas capture area. > > Seems it would have been of more value to show single band performance the > way you described it. Sort of a here is what it looks like at 144 and a > second here is what it looks like at 432. Showing they do not hurt the > other bands performances. > > I suppose one should mount the lower band antenna high enough to get the > tower out of the capture area. Although I suspect there is not a lot of > value to doing so. > > Jim > WB8VSU > > On Oct 21, 2016 10:23 PM, "KENT BRITAIN" <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > >> That article on capture areas of beams is old, we have been unable to find >> out >> where it came from. It was wrong 50 years ago, and it is wrong today! >> >> You cannot compare 144 MHz and 432 MHz capture areas at the same time! >> You must compare 144 MHz for both antennas, and 432 MHz for both antenna. >> At which time the 432 beam on 144 MHz is about the size of a quarter. >> Or 432 MHz where the 2 Meter beam has a capture area about the size of >> a silver dollar. >> >> *IF* this was true. >> You CANNOT have Log periodics because all the capture areas overlap. >> >> And all the people who have earned DXCC on HF with a good old Tribander >> have to give those back as well, because you cannot have 20, 15, and 10 >> meter >> aperture areas overlap!!!! >> >> We have tested this on the antenna range, dissimilar antennas have little >> interaction. >> >> Kent WA5VJB >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Jim Bacher via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> >> *To:* MVUS LIST <mvus-list@febo.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, October 21, 2016 8:47 PM >> *Subject:* [mvus-list] MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 >> >> See attached copy of the MVUS Anomalous Propagation for October 2016. >> >> If your email filters filter the file, you can get a copy in the archive at >> the link at the bottom of the email. >> >> Jim >> wb8vsu@mvus.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mvus-list mailing list >> mvus-list@febo.com >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@febo.com > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@febo.com > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list

J

Joe

Sat, Nov 5, 2016 12:37 AM

Hi Kent,

Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <>

The challenge: How to correct this info…!!!
73
Joe - WA8OGS

On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com wrote:

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale."

  From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server.

Randy WB8ART

-----Original Message-----
From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT
BRITAIN via mvus-list
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM
To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings.
If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed.
When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches.
If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal.
When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for.
Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands.
(Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!)
73 Kent

   From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent and all,

I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years.

I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space.

I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more.

Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab.

73,

Dave, K4TO

Hi Kent, Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage: http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <> The challenge: How to correct this info…!!! 73 Joe - WA8OGS > On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> wrote: > > The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale." > > From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server. > > Randy WB8ART > > -----Original Message----- > From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT > BRITAIN via mvus-list > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM > To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > > I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings. > If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed. > When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches. > If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal. > When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for. > Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands. > (Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!) > 73 Kent > > From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > Hi Kent and all, > > I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years. > > I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space. > > I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more. > > Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab. > > 73, > > Dave, K4TO

KB

KENT BRITAIN

Sat, Nov 5, 2016 1:48 AM

One at a time!

  From: Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent,

Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <>

The challenge: How to correct this info…!!!
73
Joe - WA8OGS

On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com wrote:

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale."

From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com
To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server.

Randy WB8ART

-----Original Message-----
From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT
BRITAIN via mvus-list
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM
To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings.
If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed.
When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches.
If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal.
When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for.
Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands.
(Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!)
73 Kent

From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list mvus-list@febo.com
To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent and all,

I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years.

I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space.

I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more.

Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab.

73,

Dave, K4TO

mvus-list mailing list
mvus-list@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list

One at a time! From: Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 Hi Kent, Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage: http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <> The challenge: How to correct this info…!!! 73 Joe - WA8OGS > On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> wrote: > > The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old Wive's Tale." > > From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru the list server but should be still on DS server. > > Randy WB8ART > > -----Original Message----- > From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT > BRITAIN via mvus-list > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM > To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > > I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings. > If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too long. Then trim elements as needed. > When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, this is about 6 inches. > If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and gain/SWR back to normal. > When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for. > Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has little todo with mounting antennas for different bands. > (Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!) > 73 Kent > > From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > Hi Kent and all, > > I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. This system has been in place for over 20 years. > > I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space. > > I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit more. > > Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb board in my lab. > > 73, > > Dave, K4TO _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list

JB

Jim Bacher

Sat, Nov 5, 2016 3:55 PM

How about one of the antenna experts on this list, write a one or two page
articles targeting the bad antenna articles and placing the articles in the
Anomalous Propagation newsletter. Which ends up in the search engines and
becomes findable. Then one of us tries to find all the websites with the
bad articles and suggests to the website replacing the bad articles with
better / more accurate papers from our newsletters?

On Nov 4, 2016 9:54 PM, "KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list" mvus-list@febo.com
wrote:

One at a time!

   From: Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing
List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent,

Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for
different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but
somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <>

The challenge: How to correct this info…!!!
73
Joe - WA8OGS

On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <

mvus-list@febo.com> wrote:

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings

from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old
Wive's Tale."

  From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing

List mvus-list@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or

at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I
believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should
be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical
knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band
spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru
the list server but should be still on DS server.

Randy WB8ART

-----Original Message-----
From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT
BRITAIN via mvus-list
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM
To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings.
If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an

element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna
range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of
element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain
goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too
long. Then trim elements as needed.

When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start

interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi,
this is about 6 inches.

If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep

them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and
gain/SWR back to normal.

When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is

considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter
and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on
the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for.

Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has

little todo with mounting antennas for different bands.

(Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!)
73 Kent

  From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing

List mvus-list@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent and all,

I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12

K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great
directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some,
but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and
a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine.
This system has been in place for over 20 years.

I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand

your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space.
The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space.

I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit

more.

Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb

board in my lab.

73,

Dave, K4TO

mvus-list mailing list
mvus-list@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list

How about one of the antenna experts on this list, write a one or two page articles targeting the bad antenna articles and placing the articles in the Anomalous Propagation newsletter. Which ends up in the search engines and becomes findable. Then one of us tries to find all the websites with the bad articles and suggests to the website replacing the bad articles with better / more accurate papers from our newsletters? On Nov 4, 2016 9:54 PM, "KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list" <mvus-list@febo.com> wrote: > One at a time! > > > > From: Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing > List <mvus-list@febo.com> > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:37 PM > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > Hi Kent, > > Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for > different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but > somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage: > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm > Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <> > > The challenge: How to correct this info…!!! > 73 > Joe - WA8OGS > > > On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < > mvus-list@febo.com> wrote: > > > > The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings > from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old > Wive's Tale." > > > > From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing > List <mvus-list@febo.com> > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:34 AM > > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > > > I believe the origin is from an old article from Dave Orleans K1WHS, or > at least that is the only printed material I had found on the web. I > believe it now resides on the Directive Systems server yet and maybe should > be pointed out to Terry for modification or updating to known technical > knowledge of the day. It was on stacking but dealt with different band > spacing as well. I didn't include it as not sure it would have got thru > the list server but should be still on DS server. > > > > Randy WB8ART > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mvus-list [mailto:mvus-list-bounces@febo.com]On Behalf Of KENT > > BRITAIN via mvus-list > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 11:40 AM > > To: Dave Sublette; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > > > > > I did this as a paper in hte 2016 CSVHFS Proceedings. > > If you have a Yagi and you bring another rod near the end of an > element,the element is electrically longer. I will do this on the antenna > range whentesting a new Yagi design. I have a stick with a few inches of > element material on it.I get it close to the tip of each element. If gain > goes up, that element is short,if the gain goes down, that element was too > long. Then trim elements as needed. > > When you start getting two Yagi's very close the elements start > interacting andchanging their tuning. For a 2 Meter and a 222 MHz Yagi, > this is about 6 inches. > > If you really want to mount them a few inches apart, and always keep > them at thesame spacing, then the element lengths can be retuned and > gain/SWR back to normal. > > When you have one of the new 10/12/15/17/20 Meter beams there is > considerableinteraction, but you just make the elements slightly shorter > and gain is back to normal.Lots of time on a computer, or lots of time on > the antenna range and the element toelement interaction is compensated for. > > Capture Area is important for good stacking of antenna arrays, but has > little todo with mounting antennas for different bands. > > (Guess this good notes for your next newsletter!) > > 73 Kent > > > > From: Dave Sublette via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com> > > To: KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net>; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing > List <mvus-list@febo.com> > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 9:33 AM > > Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016 > > > > Hi Kent and all, > > > > I have used 4x33 K1FO 70 cm on a roughly 7 foot H-frame inside of 4x12 > K1FO 2M outside of the 70cm on a 12 foot H-frame. They both show great > directivity, gain and f/b. I suspect the patterns may have suffered some, > but evidently they work. I also have 2x16 K1FO 1.25M on the center mast and > a 902 looper and 1296 yagi in there. All antennas seem to work just fine. > This system has been in place for over 20 years. > > > > I would like to read your paper if it is available. If I understand > your brief statement, each antenna only has to have its own clear space. > The higher the frequency, the smaller the required space. > > > > I’m not trying to start anything here. I am just willing to learn a bit > more. > > > > Nice to hear from you. I still use your small log periodic ant on a pcb > board in my lab. > > > > 73, > > > > Dave, K4TO > > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@febo.com > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@febo.com > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list >

GS

Gerd Schrick

Sat, Nov 5, 2016 8:21 PM

Hi Jim,

I have been following this thing and only now I begin to understand what
it is about. --------Shakespear: "Much ado about nothing!"-----

It seems all about "stacking". In my book that means arranging several
antennas one above another. The result is also called an array, or you
just say "I got a stacked beam".

I was planning to write about the "aperture" use, but that does not
include "stacking". The aperture concept is , however, very helpful in
general. Of course, you don't want the areas overlap for antennas /of
the same frequency/. In case of different frequencies this is a
different ballgame. Normally I would not recommend it, however, if that
was necessary for some reason, I have no idea how much difference that
would make for each separate frequency and I have not seen any numbers
etc. The picture with the two areas is just an indication of the shape
and size of the areas for two different frequencies. It is quite common
to use 2 satellite antennas, one for 2m, the other for 70cm on the same
boom, but side by side! I build those years ago and we were worried
about interaction etc. But the problem turned out insignificant.
However, we did not make exact measurements. As long as the aperture
areas did not overlap, all was ok!

I didn't mean to get into it here, we should plan some measurements at
the next picnic, hi! I still plan to write about the aperture concept.

Have a good weekend and don't forget to set the time (fall back).

Vy73, Gerd.

On 11/05/2016 11:55 AM, Jim Bacher via mvus-list wrote:

How about one of the antenna experts on this list, write a one or two page
articles targeting the bad antenna articles and placing the articles in the
Anomalous Propagation newsletter. Which ends up in the search engines and
becomes findable. Then one of us tries to find all the websites with the
bad articles and suggests to the website replacing the bad articles with
better / more accurate papers from our newsletters?

On Nov 4, 2016 9:54 PM, "KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list" mvus-list@febo.com
wrote:

One at a time!

    From: Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>

To: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net; Midwest VHF/UHF Society Mailing
List mvus-list@febo.com
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [mvus-list] : MVUS Anomalous Propagation / October 2016

Hi Kent,

Your discussion about incorrect stacking distance information for
different frequency antennas is covered (with nice illustrations, but
somewhat incorrect) on this UK webpage:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
Scroll down the page to: Antennas for Different Bands… In Practice <>

The challenge: How to correct this info…!!!
73
Joe - WA8OGS

On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <

mvus-list@febo.com> wrote:

The article goes back much farther than that have Dave used the drawings

from a Ham Radio article. Certainly falls under the heading of "Old
Wive's Tale."

   From: Randy Midkiff via mvus-list <mvus-list@febo.com>