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TWL: Wire gauge

M
mknott@bcpl.net
Wed, Feb 23, 2000 8:16 PM

Thanks to all who responded to my question about the proper gauge wire to
connect my 300w inverter.  I think I'll go with the 10 gauge wire to help
insure against voltage drop in a hot engine room environment, and just in case
the run is longer than I estimate.

Maybe this is how it starts... a small inverter so we can watch TV quietly.
Then we start adding more batteries, then a bigger inverter, a bigger
alternator, and so on.  ;-)

Mel Knott
Sandpiper
West Indian 36
Annapolis, MD

Thanks to all who responded to my question about the proper gauge wire to connect my 300w inverter. I think I'll go with the 10 gauge wire to help insure against voltage drop in a hot engine room environment, and just in case the run is longer than I estimate. Maybe this is how it starts... a small inverter so we can watch TV quietly. Then we start adding more batteries, then a bigger inverter, a bigger alternator, and so on. ;-) Mel Knott Sandpiper West Indian 36 Annapolis, MD
P
pjr@netsense.net
Fri, Feb 25, 2000 1:31 AM

Yup, that's how it starts all right.  My Norcold DE728 died.  I called a
distributor and they wanted $1,895 for a new one.  I bought a Freedom 10 for
$500, (4) golf cart batteries for $200, and a Sears refrigerator for $261.
Bottom line is 110 is a commodity.  Now everything from blenders to hair
dryers is 110 and I don't even need to fire up the ONAN on an average
weekend.  Mudslides are a lot better when made properly in a good blender!

                      Regards...

Phil Rosch
Dolly Surprise, MT 44 DC
Wakefield, RI

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com
[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]  On Behalf Of mknott
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:16 PM
To: Trawler World List
Subject: TWL: Wire gauge

Thanks to all who responded to my question about the proper gauge wire to
connect my 300w inverter.  I think I'll go with the 10 gauge wire to help
insure against voltage drop in a hot engine room environment, and just in
case
the run is longer than I estimate.

Maybe this is how it starts... a small inverter so we can watch TV quietly.
Then we start adding more batteries, then a bigger inverter, a bigger
alternator, and so on.  ;-)

Mel Knott
Sandpiper
West Indian 36
Annapolis, MD

Yup, that's how it starts all right. My Norcold DE728 died. I called a distributor and they wanted $1,895 for a new one. I bought a Freedom 10 for $500, (4) golf cart batteries for $200, and a Sears refrigerator for $261. Bottom line is 110 is a commodity. Now everything from blenders to hair dryers is 110 and I don't even need to fire up the ONAN on an average weekend. Mudslides are a lot better when made properly in a good blender! Regards... Phil Rosch Dolly Surprise, MT 44 DC Wakefield, RI -----Original Message----- From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com] On Behalf Of mknott Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:16 PM To: Trawler World List Subject: TWL: Wire gauge Thanks to all who responded to my question about the proper gauge wire to connect my 300w inverter. I think I'll go with the 10 gauge wire to help insure against voltage drop in a hot engine room environment, and just in case the run is longer than I estimate. Maybe this is how it starts... a small inverter so we can watch TV quietly. Then we start adding more batteries, then a bigger inverter, a bigger alternator, and so on. ;-) Mel Knott Sandpiper West Indian 36 Annapolis, MD
R
russ@trawlerdogs.com
Fri, Feb 25, 2000 2:25 AM

Just as an aside, a refrigerator is the one thing that buying a dc
version doesn't gain you much. The compressors are all (as far as I
know) ac motors. So the dc refrigerators have a built in inverter to run
off dc. You will have about the same efficiency buying an ac unit and
running it off your ship's inverter.
Russ

"Philip J. Rosch" wrote:

Yup, that's how it starts all right.  My Norcold DE728 died.

|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    Russ and Donna Sherwin                                            |
|      "Four Seasons"                                                  |
|    1981 Marine Trader DC44                                          |
|    Sunnyvale, Ca 94087                                              |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Just as an aside, a refrigerator is the one thing that buying a dc version doesn't gain you much. The compressors are all (as far as I know) ac motors. So the dc refrigerators have a built in inverter to run off dc. You will have about the same efficiency buying an ac unit and running it off your ship's inverter. Russ "Philip J. Rosch" wrote: > > Yup, that's how it starts all right. My Norcold DE728 died. |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Russ and Donna Sherwin | | "Four Seasons" | | 1981 Marine Trader DC44 | | Sunnyvale, Ca 94087 | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
E
elnav@uniserve.com
Sat, Feb 26, 2000 11:37 AM

At 06:25 PM 02/24/2000 -0800,Russ Sherwin  wrote:

Just as an aside, a refrigerator is the one thing that buying a dc
version doesn't gain you much. The compressors are all (as far as I
know) ac motors. So the dc refrigerators have a built in inverter to run
off dc. You will have about the same efficiency buying an ac unit and
running it off your ship's inverter.
Russ

Arild replies:
A slight correction regarding DC fridges.  They do have  some advantages.

First of all,  there is a backup built in because the  way a  two  way unit
is set up  gives preference to  120V AC and  does an automatic  transfer to
12 V DC if the AC fails.  Many inverters do not have  automatic transfer
swithces built in.

A vessel  left unattended and connected to dockside power  will not have
the contents of the  fridge spoil if the cord is  dislodged by someone else
using the  outlet  in the  owners absence.  Nor will a prolonged utility
power outage  cause problems unless the  battery also runs  down.

It  is my understanding that  Norcold fridges have 24 Volt DC compressor
motors.  The " inverter" is actually a DC - DC converter changing the  12 V
to 24 V.    The reason for this is that  wire gauge can be reduced greatly
when running 24V compared to 12 Volts.
When  running on  120V AC  the  voltage is reduced with a transformer and
rectified to suit the 24V DC motor.

Speaking of inverters, I would like to point out that  inverter brands
vary.  Some of the  early models put out a square wave. Then came  modified
square wave and finally true sine wave which  is closest to  what  you get
from the  power utility grid.
The  efficiency  of  the inverters will also  vary from brand to brand.  In
addition the efficiency varies with load.  So depending on the size of your
inverter and what  % of full rated output your fridge represents, you may
not be at optimum efficiency.

I have discovered that  motors in fridges and air conditioners run cooler
on  sine wave  inverters as compared to  modified sine/square or square
wave inverter outputs.  I have asked one manufacturer to  conduct some
tests to  document  and quantify exactly what  and how much difference
there is.

Recently, I spoke to someone who  had to replace their  AC fridge which was
running off an old square wave inverter. The fridge failed much sooner than
expected and it is my opinion that  internal  heating of the  compressor
motor due to the inverter waveform was a major contributing factor.

The conversion efficiency of the  inverter must also  be considered. Not
all inverters are equal.  For that matter not all gensets are putting out
pure sine waves. This was a surprise to me.  While attending boat shows I
discovered that many  smaller gensets  have a high  harmonic  distortion
content.  There is a new technology available which  uses variable speed
control and a complex  alternator/inverter setup to produce  60Hz  120V power.

The  variable speed  genset runs at  a power level  to match the demand.
The  output from the alternator is  then fed into an electronic control box
which  operates much like a switching  mode inverter to  create 120/240
AC regulated  at a fixed 50 /60 hertz.    As load  increases the throttle
is advanced  to produce  more elecrtical power from the alternator and thus
more  inverter output.  The problem  is, some of these elecrtonic control
boxes  do not put out pure sine wave.  One manufacturer was  specifying  a
22.5 % harmonic  distortion  content for their smallest model.
Guess what that  level  of distortion  does to the efficiency of your
fridge or air conditioner motors.  How much hotter does it make the motor
run?  How much does it  shorten the motor life?
No one  seems to have an answer.
At least with  a purpose built  DC fridge you have the manufactures
guarantee that the  unit will perform  to design spec  for the planned
lifespan  of the  appliance.

Just  my two cents worth.

Cheers

Arild

At 06:25 PM 02/24/2000 -0800,Russ Sherwin wrote: >Just as an aside, a refrigerator is the one thing that buying a dc >version doesn't gain you much. The compressors are all (as far as I >know) ac motors. So the dc refrigerators have a built in inverter to run >off dc. You will have about the same efficiency buying an ac unit and >running it off your ship's inverter. >Russ Arild replies: A slight correction regarding DC fridges. They do have some advantages. First of all, there is a backup built in because the way a two way unit is set up gives preference to 120V AC and does an automatic transfer to 12 V DC if the AC fails. Many inverters do not have automatic transfer swithces built in. A vessel left unattended and connected to dockside power will not have the contents of the fridge spoil if the cord is dislodged by someone else using the outlet in the owners absence. Nor will a prolonged utility power outage cause problems unless the battery also runs down. It is my understanding that Norcold fridges have 24 Volt DC compressor motors. The " inverter" is actually a DC - DC converter changing the 12 V to 24 V. The reason for this is that wire gauge can be reduced greatly when running 24V compared to 12 Volts. When running on 120V AC the voltage is reduced with a transformer and rectified to suit the 24V DC motor. Speaking of inverters, I would like to point out that inverter brands vary. Some of the early models put out a square wave. Then came modified square wave and finally true sine wave which is closest to what you get from the power utility grid. The efficiency of the inverters will also vary from brand to brand. In addition the efficiency varies with load. So depending on the size of your inverter and what % of full rated output your fridge represents, you may not be at optimum efficiency. I have discovered that motors in fridges and air conditioners run cooler on sine wave inverters as compared to modified sine/square or square wave inverter outputs. I have asked one manufacturer to conduct some tests to document and quantify exactly what and how much difference there is. Recently, I spoke to someone who had to replace their AC fridge which was running off an old square wave inverter. The fridge failed much sooner than expected and it is my opinion that internal heating of the compressor motor due to the inverter waveform was a major contributing factor. The conversion efficiency of the inverter must also be considered. Not all inverters are equal. For that matter not all gensets are putting out pure sine waves. This was a surprise to me. While attending boat shows I discovered that many smaller gensets have a high harmonic distortion content. There is a new technology available which uses variable speed control and a complex alternator/inverter setup to produce 60Hz 120V power. The variable speed genset runs at a power level to match the demand. The output from the alternator is then fed into an electronic control box which operates much like a switching mode inverter to create 120/240 AC regulated at a fixed 50 /60 hertz. As load increases the throttle is advanced to produce more elecrtical power from the alternator and thus more inverter output. The problem is, some of these elecrtonic control boxes do not put out pure sine wave. One manufacturer was specifying a 22.5 % harmonic distortion content for their smallest model. Guess what that level of distortion does to the efficiency of your fridge or air conditioner motors. How much hotter does it make the motor run? How much does it shorten the motor life? No one seems to have an answer. At least with a purpose built DC fridge you have the manufactures guarantee that the unit will perform to design spec for the planned lifespan of the appliance. Just my two cents worth. Cheers Arild