Hello Dennis, Your name had been brought up by Bob Austin in reference to your trip from NZ to Seattle; "In fact I wonder about the ability of cats on long passages because of the fuel and weight. Note that Dennis Raedeke ran on only one engine alternatively with controlable pitch (and feathering props) on his passage New Zealand to Seattle. Another point for the motor sailer--and one that Dennis makes--perhaps he will join the discussion when he settles down for the summer (gets the boat back to Lake Superior in a month or so)." I was unaware of any reference to who you were and what type of vessel you made the trip in until your recent posting. I'm really glad you were able to make a contribution to this list prior to your departure to the north. I can see you have spent considerable time sorting through these questions of all power craft verses power/sail craft as well as mono vs. multihulls. So I too look forward to your contributions to these forum discussions. On your trip north will you be spending anytime in the Chesapeake Bay region, specifically Annapolis?? I would love to get a look at your vessel in person. I have another older sailor who might also have a great interest in seeing it as well. I've long been an advocate of motor sailers, and particularly as related to catamarans. At the beginning of these new forum discussions I posted a paper discussing such, "Motor/Sailing Catamaran Concept,(defining 'the best boat to undertake a world cruise')" <http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/power-catamaran/2005March/000006.html> I've excerpted a few of your comments in your posting: Dennis Raedeke wrote: > It is obvious that I think power cats can cross oceans safely, or I > would never would have left New Zealand to go to Seattle. When one > thinks about surviving the ultimate storm many things come into play. I > have never been in what I would call and extremely large storm. I have > been aboard a 40' mono sailboat in the North Atlantic in 50-60kn winds > in which we laid a hull. Surviving the storm is just one aspect of the > ordeal. Fuel supply is the other. You may be able to maneuver the boat > in such a way to survive, but then you still have to be able to get > somewhere. This can be a problem if you spent a lot of fuel during the > storm. Brian replied: A solely powered vessel is at the mercy of the sea should she run short of fuel, or more likely have her power interrupted from any number of reasons. So having some sort of auxiliary power source on board is a real back-up safety issue. If it can also help propel the vessel and stabilize the vessel, all the better. Granted a sailing rig of any sort cost additional money (and considerably these days), but it is the ultimate insurance policy for both the vessel and its crew. Look at what happened to this salty looking trawler in relatively moderate conditions in last year's Atlantic Rally: <http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=40386&postcount=71> a simple electrical problem with the stabilizer fins had these folks considering a vessel abandonment. The vessel had a small mast but no provision for a steadying sail. _____________________________ Dennis wrote: I have had two experiences where I believe that a mono in the same > circumstances my have rolled over. Once has off Huahine in French > Polynesia and the other time was between NZ and Fiji. Both cases the > boat dropped severely to the Starboard side, just like falling off a > wall. In both cases I was heading slightly in to the wind and a large > Southern Ocean swell connected with the normal wind driven sea and made > a square wave. This is where I believe a mast and sail would have > helped to dampen the the action. I know people shoot me down when I > talk about power cats with sail rigs, but for me, who has done it both > ways, if I were to build another circumnavigating boat it would have a > mast. The mast would steady the quick beam action of a power cat even if > no sail was set. Brian replied: I'm not so sure the 'rig' would help much in falling off a square wave, but it certainly contributes to decreasing the boats rolling motions. I had written to Bob Austin recently: "Bob Austin had written: I have rolled a boat to 90 degrees in hurricane force winds on a North Atlantic crossing--my boat was an extremely seaworthy motorsailer--and I suspect that most power passagemakers in that size (62 feet length over all) would have also had serious problems in these types of seas. <snipped> Brian commented:I suspect that most all-powered, monohull vessels would have had even significantly more trouble than your motor sailer in those conditions. Two reasons, the inertia qualities of the sailing rig, and the hull shapes involved. The mast structure on a sailing boat, on a motorsailer, and even 'steadying rigs' on trawlers act to dampen the rolling motion in a seaway as a result of inertia. A sailing vessel that has lost her rig is in more peril than with it. The power vessel with no rig suffers accordingly.The beamy, hard chine, relatively flat bottomed, virtually keel-less shapes of many planning power craft are much more susceptible to rolling, and possess less damping qualities than most sailing shapes. Very seldom has one found the need to put anti-roll (stabilizing) fins on a motorsailer, whereas they are virtually a requirement on any power craft going off-shore. Look what happens when the electric power got interrupted to the fin stabilizer system on this salty looking trawler, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=40251&postcount=17 http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p40383&postcount=21 ...almost lost the vessel, and this is not a heavy sea ___________________________________ Dennis wrote: One other point is that most > power boats on a transocean passage travels at 6-8 knots. I traveled > that and more in Wild Wind III ,a sailing cat, when circumnavigating. > I once went 440 KM in 48 hrs. I believe a power cat with a specially designed rig which could be remove easily would be the best of both worlds. Not like what we now think of as a motor sailer. The power cat I propose would be able to be lighter because you would not need to carry so much fuel. My ride from NZ to Seattle would have been as fast or faster if Wild Wind IV had a rig. I have designed a rig that fits the needs of us older guys who don't want to pull strings any more and could be stored on the boat when not used. I would like to talk to someone who wants to build a circumnavigating power cat with a mast. I always say that we all design things in relation to the experiences we have had. Brian replied; Obviously I've played around with a few sailing rig variations myself, <www.RunningTideYachts.com/sail/> and <http://www.runningtideyachts.com/articles/othermansboat1.html> etc. I would very much like to see what you have in mind. Would it resemble this <http://www.bcatpower.com/angl/bienvenue_1.htm> ____________________________________ Dennis wrote: > Our pure trawler friends have not yet figured out that they could buy a > good used sailing cat and motor as fast or faster and have more room and > draw less water and spend less money and never need to hank on a sail. > The only drawback is the beam and maybe the length for storage. Brian replied: Interesting observation. Problem also is most saling cats are UGLY and certainly don't look as salty as the trawler designs. _____________________________ Dennis wrote > Anyone can send comments to me directly. I have not signed onto the list > because we are busy getting things together here at home and preparing to go up the East Coast and then up the St. Lawrence to our home waters of > Lake Superior. If you see Wild Wind IV don't hesitate to hail us, we > always love to talk to other boaters. > > Dennis Raedeke > Wild Wind IV Brian replied: I copied you seperately on this message so I hope it gets to you. Would love to see you in Annapolis or some surrounding city if you're going up the Chesapeake Bay Brian Eiland beiland@usa.net http://www.RunningTideYachts.com distinctive multihull expedition yachts

Brian Eiland wrote >Look at what happened to this salty looking trawler in relatively moderate >conditions in last year's Atlantic Rally: ><http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=40386&postcount=71> >a simple electrical problem with the stabilizer fins had these folks >considering a vessel abandonment. That is a gross overstatement of the facts. I was on the rally as a journalist and spoke with the owners at length. The electrical problem was far from simple yet at no time were they "considering" to abandon ship. If you're using my report in the the Fall 2004 edition of Power Cruising as your source (That's where the photo seems to have been lifted from, with permission, I trust), it's a sign of seamanship to have life jackets and a ditch bag at the ready for any emergency, not an indication per se that anyone is thinking about jumping ship. --Georgs -- Georgs Kolesnikovs Editor-at-large, Power Cruising http://www.powercruisingmag.com https://secure.palmcoastd.com/pcd/document?ikey=0897ZHDDD http://radio.weblogs.com/0137829/