Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there tricks that can be played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two counters that are somehow made to cooperate?
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Tom Duckworth
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Oktober 2008 22:19
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Stefan,
I am retired from Pendulum Instruments and could answer your question but I
have instead refered your question to a current engineer with the company
and you should receive an answer from them shortly. They are the experts for
this question.
Tom
Tom Duckworth
510-886-1396
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:12 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Hi all,
I hope you can clear up some confusion that I have regarding ADEV
measurement. I was under the impression that you need a counter that is able
to timestamp each rising edge of the clock under test, or equivalently
measure period time continuously with no dead time. Now, while the CNT-90
can do this, the CNT-81 ( = PM6681 ) can't. Still, a message last December
to the list here
(http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts@febo.com/msg10963.html) seems to
indicate that using TimeView you can have ADEV plotted with the "lesser"
model, too. I have a PM6681 and TimeView, but I couldn't find out how to do
it. Maybe it can't be done.
So what's the deal on this? Can it be done, with or without TimeView, and if
yes, how? If this has been answered earlier, a link would be just fine.
Thanks and cheers
Stefan
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Along the same lines (and this may have come up before), is there a good
Allan-deviation application for Windows that talks to the 5370B?
-- john, KE5FX
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com]On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about
measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are
there tricks that can be played, either with a special
measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two
counters that are somehow made to cooperate?
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Tom Duckworth
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Oktober 2008 22:19
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Stefan,
I am retired from Pendulum Instruments and could answer your
question but I
have instead refered your question to a current engineer with the company
and you should receive an answer from them shortly. They are the
experts for
this question.
Tom
Tom Duckworth
510-886-1396
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:12 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Hi all,
I hope you can clear up some confusion that I have regarding ADEV
measurement. I was under the impression that you need a counter
that is able
to timestamp each rising edge of the clock under test, or equivalently
measure period time continuously with no dead time. Now, while the CNT-90
can do this, the CNT-81 ( = PM6681 ) can't. Still, a message last December
to the list here
(http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts@febo.com/msg10963.html) seems to
indicate that using TimeView you can have ADEV plotted with the "lesser"
model, too. I have a PM6681 and TimeView, but I couldn't find out
how to do
it. Maybe it can't be done.
So what's the deal on this? Can it be done, with or without
TimeView, and if
yes, how? If this has been answered earlier, a link would be just fine.
Thanks and cheers
Stefan
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there
tricks that can be played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two counters that
are somehow made to cooperate?
Consider when you compare two PPS signals. If you counter has a dead
time of say 100 ms then it is only a certain phase relationship which
causes the counter to miss a count if you have a counter requiring
channel A to trigger prior to channel B (or vice versa). If you have +/-
TI mode then channel A or B can act as a start, and then the other
channel acts like stop. Then you can hide the dead period as it
dynamically shifts over.
The trouble with dead time is much more annoying when you need to count
the cycles of the signals. The PPS case does that counting without
having dead-time, so we only need to handle the wrappings of those counters.
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
It is a fair question.
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 11:20 +0200, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
But I lack a GPIB solution to record any measurement series... :-(
--
Björn
So you are proposing to do a kind of simulated time stamping by using a reference PPS signal and measure the time distance between the reference edge and the edge of the DUT? Nice idea, I'd probably need to do some math on the result to convert it to a proper timestamp, but that shouldn't be too hard. Are there tools that can do this for you? Ulrich Bangert's Plotter maybe?
The limitations of this technique, as far as I see it, are the maximum relative phase deviation of the signal under test with respect to the reference, and the limitations of the counter in terms of dead-time and trigger order. I suppose it becomes much more difficult with higher frequencies.
The PM6681 does not appear to have support for measuring time intervals in positive and negative directions at the same time. That would limit the usefulness of this trick, it seems. Or is it just as valid to use the opposite edge of one of the signals?
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Magnus Danielson
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Oktober 2008 11:20
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there
tricks that can be played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two counters that
are somehow made to cooperate?
Consider when you compare two PPS signals. If you counter has a dead
time of say 100 ms then it is only a certain phase relationship which
causes the counter to miss a count if you have a counter requiring
channel A to trigger prior to channel B (or vice versa). If you have +/-
TI mode then channel A or B can act as a start, and then the other
channel acts like stop. Then you can hide the dead period as it
dynamically shifts over.
The trouble with dead time is much more annoying when you need to count
the cycles of the signals. The PPS case does that counting without
having dead-time, so we only need to handle the wrappings of those counters.
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
It is a fair question.
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 11:20 +0200, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
But I lack a GPIB solution to record any measurement series... :-(
I have a laptop with GPIB and TimeView on it. Just lacking the counter.
Cheers,
Magnus
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
So you are proposing to do a kind of simulated time stamping by using a reference PPS signal and measure the time distance between the reference edge and the edge of the DUT? Nice idea, I'd probably need to do some math on the result to convert it to a proper timestamp, but that shouldn't be too hard. Are there tools that can do this for you? Ulrich Bangert's Plotter maybe?
The limitations of this technique, as far as I see it, are the maximum relative phase deviation of the signal under test with respect to the reference, and the limitations of the counter in terms of dead-time and trigger order. I suppose it becomes much more difficult with higher frequencies.
The PM6681 does not appear to have support for measuring time intervals in positive and negative directions at the same time. That would limit the usefulness of this trick, it seems. Or is it just as valid to use the opposite edge of one of the signals?
Cheers
Stefan
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there
tricks that can be played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two counters that
are somehow made to cooperate?
Consider when you compare two PPS signals. If you counter has a dead
time of say 100 ms then it is only a certain phase relationship which
causes the counter to miss a count if you have a counter requiring
channel A to trigger prior to channel B (or vice versa). If you have +/-
TI mode then channel A or B can act as a start, and then the other
channel acts like stop. Then you can hide the dead period as it
dynamically shifts over.
The trouble with dead time is much more annoying when you need to count
the cycles of the signals. The PPS case does that counting without
having dead-time, so we only need to handle the wrappings of those counters.
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
It is a fair question.
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
Why not just use Greenhall's picket fence technique which was devised to
allow timestamping of a signal despite the time interval counter having
a finite deadtime?
Use the leading edge of the PPS signal to start the time interval
counter and stop the time interval counter on the next zero crossing of
say a 10Hz, 100Hz, or even a 1KHz signal derived from the local
frequency standard?
Since the largest time interval to be measured is 100ms, 10ms or 1ms
depending on the STOP channel frequency, counter deadtime is not a problem.
Details are given in the paper:
http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/papers/picket_uffc.pdf
Bruce
The picket fence technique indeed seems like an interesting solution. The one thing that made me concerned is the problem of detecting missing data. The detection seems to be hardest when the frequency of the DUT is a submultiple of the picket fence frequency, which is what your examples amount to. So I wonder: Would it be better to use a noninteger picket frequency if one wants to measure PPS signals?
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bruce Griffiths
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Oktober 2008 14:44
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
So you are proposing to do a kind of simulated time stamping by using a reference PPS signal and measure the time distance between the reference edge and the edge of the DUT? Nice idea, I'd probably need to do some math on the result to convert it to a proper timestamp, but that shouldn't be too hard. Are there tools that can do this for you? Ulrich Bangert's Plotter maybe?
The limitations of this technique, as far as I see it, are the maximum relative phase deviation of the signal under test with respect to the reference, and the limitations of the counter in terms of dead-time and trigger order. I suppose it becomes much more difficult with higher frequencies.
The PM6681 does not appear to have support for measuring time intervals in positive and negative directions at the same time. That would limit the usefulness of this trick, it seems. Or is it just as valid to use the opposite edge of one of the signals?
Cheers
Stefan
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there
tricks that can be played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data postprocessing? Or with two counters that
are somehow made to cooperate?
Consider when you compare two PPS signals. If you counter has a dead
time of say 100 ms then it is only a certain phase relationship which
causes the counter to miss a count if you have a counter requiring
channel A to trigger prior to channel B (or vice versa). If you have +/-
TI mode then channel A or B can act as a start, and then the other
channel acts like stop. Then you can hide the dead period as it
dynamically shifts over.
The trouble with dead time is much more annoying when you need to count
the cycles of the signals. The PPS case does that counting without
having dead-time, so we only need to handle the wrappings of those counters.
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
It is a fair question.
Besides, if Tom sent the question to Staffan, then it will be a little
while since he is on vacation.
Björn has a PM6681, he can actually TRY IT. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
Why not just use Greenhall's picket fence technique which was devised to
allow timestamping of a signal despite the time interval counter having
a finite deadtime?
Use the leading edge of the PPS signal to start the time interval
counter and stop the time interval counter on the next zero crossing of
say a 10Hz, 100Hz, or even a 1KHz signal derived from the local
frequency standard?
Since the largest time interval to be measured is 100ms, 10ms or 1ms
depending on the STOP channel frequency, counter deadtime is not a problem.
Details are given in the paper:
http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/papers/picket_uffc.pdf
Bruce
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
The picket fence technique indeed seems like an interesting solution. The one thing that made me concerned is the problem of detecting missing data. The detection seems to be hardest when the frequency of the DUT is a submultiple of the picket fence frequency, which is what your examples amount to. So I wonder: Would it be better to use a noninteger picket frequency if one wants to measure PPS signals?
Cheers
Stefan
Stefan
I presume you are referring to missing PPS pulses from a GPS receiver.
In this case with a timing GPS receiver logging the timestamp associated
with each PPS pulse should allow you to detect missing PPS pulses.
The M12+T and M12M -T timing receivers can make this data available.
Otherwise very coarse time stamping is more than sufficient to detect
missing PPS pulses.
Such time stamping can easily be done with a PC.
Bruce
Stefan,
Well, I have been sort of staying out of the recent discussions regarding
oscillator stability measurements, ADEV, etc., but here goes my two cents
worth. I hope it doesn't muddy the waters too much and is somewhat helpful.
There is a fundamental problem with trying to do ADEV (Allan Deviation) with
a counter that has a gated measurement engine (all standard counters). The
problem is that when the count engine gate closes (so the counter can
compute the number of events, report the result as a frequency, and clear
its registers), the counter is blind (dead time) to any signal at the input.
Allan deviation REQUIRES than a minimum number of measurements be made
back-to-back (no dead time between measurements) in order to capture
nondeterministic fluctuations of the signal you're trying to measure. This
requires a measuring device (counter) that continuously records ALL events.
It does this by time-stamping a fixed period in a separate register in the
counter along with the input register (the signal being measured), and a
time-base register that records the frequency the signal is to be compared
with. There is no gate as such in a time-stamping counter.
Most stability measurements, longer than say 100 seconds, are made in the
frequency domain because energy changes, as a result of heat, are by far the
predominate cause of stability (aging) issues (see below). Stability issues
within shorter time periods, say <100 sec., are often nondeterministic, and
cannot be accurately quantified in the frequency domain, but must be
measured in the time domain, using statistical weighting. In other words,
unpredictable, and often little understood, events (Shot and thermal noise
in the active devices, random variations in the frequency-determining
elements, cosmic rays, etc.) often predominate short term stability
measurements and must be described statistically, as their occurrence and
duration are random. Allan deviation is a widely accepted time-domain
statistical measurement whose calculated results compare well with the more
common frequency domain measurement of longer time periods.
Allan deviation measurements are based on the sample variance of the
fractional-frequency fluctuations. Without specifying the number of samples
N, and the repetition interval T, for measurements of duration t, the
measure of frequency stability is dimensionless and would converge to a
meaningless limit. Secondly, some actual noise processes contain substantial
fractions of the total noise power in the instantaneous fractional-frequency
range below one cycle per year. In order to improve compatibility of data,
it is important to specify a particular N and T. The Allan variance chooses
N=2 and T=t (i.e. no dead time between measurements). A good estimate can be
obtained by a limited number, m, of measurements (m=*100). Root Allen
variance is expressed as a quantity divided by the square of the
measurements of duration t, (i.e., 3 x 10-11/*t).
.
Classical variance diverges for commonly observed noise processes, such as
random walk (i.e., the variance increases with an increasing number of data
points). The advantage with the Allan variance is that it:
converges for all noise processes observed in precision
oscillators;
has straightforward relationship to power law spectral density
(spectral density of the frequency fluctuations);
is easy to compute, and;
is faster and more accurate in estimating noise processes than
the Fast Fourier Transform.
Aging in quartz crystal oscillators is caused by changes in either the
quartz crystal itself or the associated components found in the oscillator
assembly. Aging is the result of a combination of several factors having
complex, and only partially understood, components that effect the aging
specification. Effects can include the cut (orientation) of the crystal;
vibration modes; frequency of cut size; temperature of operation and
variations of temperature; drive energy; gravity; physical orientation;
shock; electromagnetic interference; diffusion of impurities and the
outgassing of the quartz crystal; the glass or ceramic base; the adhesive
used to mount the quartz; metal migration from the electrodes into the
quartz surface; stress relief of the crystal mounts; changes of electric
component values over time; and, voltage regulation.
This is probably more information than you really wanted, but oh well,
enjoy.
Tom
Tom Duckworth
510-886-1396
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:03 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Thanks, Tom!
Apart from the specifics with TimeView, how does one go about measuring ADEV
with a counter that does have a dead-time? Are there tricks that can be
played, either with a special measurement setup or with some data
postprocessing? Or with two counters that are somehow made to cooperate?
Sorry if I'm asking the obvious, you can see that I'm a greenhorn. ;-)
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im
Auftrag von Tom Duckworth
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Oktober 2008 22:19
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Stefan,
I am retired from Pendulum Instruments and could answer your question but I
have instead refered your question to a current engineer with the company
and you should receive an answer from them shortly. They are the experts for
this question.
Tom
Tom Duckworth
510-886-1396
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring ADEV with a PM6681 or CNT-81
Hi all,
I hope you can clear up some confusion that I have regarding ADEV
measurement. I was under the impression that you need a counter that is able
to timestamp each rising edge of the clock under test, or equivalently
measure period time continuously with no dead time. Now, while the CNT-90
can do this, the CNT-81 ( = PM6681 ) can't. Still, a message last December
to the list here
(http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts@febo.com/msg10963.html) seems to
indicate that using TimeView you can have ADEV plotted with the "lesser"
model, too. I have a PM6681 and TimeView, but I couldn't find out how to do
it. Maybe it can't be done.
So what's the deal on this? Can it be done, with or without TimeView, and if
yes, how? If this has been answered earlier, a link would be just fine.
Thanks and cheers
Stefan
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.