Empathy List Archives

G

Graham

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Hello all,

I agreed with pretty much everything Rod said right down to this next
paragraph:

"I'd also suggest that if the builder says he can't build your new cat with
a receipt of only a 15% or 20% deposit from you (instead, he wants stage
payments from you), that isn't necessarily a sign of a builder with a
worrisome financial situation -- but it might be. Conversely, if the
builder WILL build you a complete boat, with only a 10% or 20% deposit, he's
likely to be a better funded entity. (But he could be just hoping to take
you for your deposit...period.)"

Rod is somewhat correct but he should have qualified what size of cat he is
referring to and whether it is a production cat, a semi-production cat or a
custom built cat, so let me elaborate.

Starting at the last referenced, "a custom built cat", especially over 45'
that can cost a builder over US $1m to build and take over 12 months to
complete. There are no builders out there I know of who could or would
carry that amount of debt for that amount of time. Sure they can finance
the construction debt, for a price, but then they would have to pass the
finance charges on to the customer increasing the price of his boat even
more, which is okay if agreed to ahead of time, but more often it's less
expensive for the customer to 'pay as he goes'.

Most custom boat builders I'm aware of who contract for boats over US $1m
prefer a 10% to 20% deposit topped up monthly on invoices tendered to the
customer that includes purchases made for his boat and the labor hours used
by the different trades. This way the builder does not have to finance the
customer's boat and the customer sees the equity in his boat grow each
month. A reputable custom boat builder works to a construction schedule
that shows how many workers of which disciplines work how many hours in that
month on the customers boat. Some builders offer an "open book policy"
where they are willing to, literally, open their tax books to you and show
you workers wages paid. You should have your lawyer check that the build
contract includes a section laying out that the builder cannot use the
partly built boat, or any part thereof as equity or collateral on any
purchase(s) or......whatever...... I'm not a lawyer, but this is to prevent
vendors holding your partly completed boat as security on unpaid bills
should the builder suddenly go belly up!

Even a semi-production cat that owners make changes to can run up a sizable
construction bill and will take extra time to complete. Time amounts to
labor and overheads that have to be paid for, so the same conditions and
restrictions that apply to a custom build should apply to a semi-custom
build.

Production cats are a different kettle of fish. You usually pay a deposit
and receive a hull number that will become your boat when the production
schedule gets around to it. These boats are usually under 40' and cost a
lot less than custom and semi-custom cats, especially if it has outboards
and not inboards. But this is a competitive market with low margins and we
all know what happened to PDQ. I knew they couldn't sell their boats for
that price and stay solvent but, they wanted to go head to head with some
other companies and paid the price.

'Caveat emptor', let the buyer beware, but have a good lawyer on your side
to check the contract and give you an edge on the unknown.

Graham Pfister
TrawlerCat Marine Designs
BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces+graham=trawlercatmarine.com@lists.samurai.com
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Today's Topics:

Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay (Rod Gibbons)
Re: Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay (gram rupert)
Buzzards Bay Cat (John Schieffelin)
Re: Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay (Robert Deering)
Buzzards Bay and the rest. (Tim Jordaan)
Singlehanding (pauljchristman@aol.com)
Re: Singlehanding (Georgs Kolesnikovs)

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 02:35:32 -0700
From: Rod Gibbons rodgibbons@mindspring.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay
Message-ID: 4AE41BE4.3050905@mindspring.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

NOTE: The author of this post is a catamaran dealer.

I noticed in a recent posting that someone wrote there are "tons of
boats around " for the $285K base-price of the Buzzard's Bay 33. I'm
wondering if he was including monohulls, because in my experience there
aren't a "ton of catamarans" available in ANY specific size or price
range . . . and certainly not in the 32-to 36-foot range. But I assume
there are more than a few members here who would like to know what IS
available in that, category.

So, let me get the ball rolling with a few names and facts, and then
others can add other models I've overlooked.

(1) There's the Glacier Bay 34. (Although I believe they've recently
terminated production, but recent-model used ones are out there.) But
when new and equipped with twin diesels, this cat, reasonably
well-equipped, could run from $400K to as much as $500K.

(2) Fountaine Pajot has its Highland 35. The base boat, with twin
diesels, delivered to the U.S. east coast, is about $365K --
cruise-equipped she'll readily reach $400K-to-$425K. She cruises at 15
knots, with a max speed of about 20-to-22 knots.

(3) The PDQ-34, before the end of production (equipped with twin
diesels -- cruise at 15 knots, max-speed about 20 knots), also readily
reached $375K to $425K, delivered to the U.S. with a moderate amount of
cruising equipment included.

(4) The Coastal Cat 34 (currently in production in Washington state),
has an introductory price of $315K. (Powered by twin 60-HP outboards --
cruise at 15 knots, max-speed about 21 knots) Her two double berths are
each 60" wide. Figure on adding at least about $25K to $30K of cruising
equipment. (dinghy, outboard, ground tackle, electronics, heat or
air-conditioning, etc.) Delivery to the U.S. east coast (by truck,
possible given her 15'9" beam), would run about $15K. (Which is $20K to
$30K less than the delivery price -- by ship -- of similar size power
cats delivered from Europe, S. Africa or Australia to the U.S..)

(5) Prowler 33. Manufactured in New Zealand, also outboard powered.
(The Prowler and the Coastal Cat are related designs from Schionning
designs of Australia). The latest builder of this boat is about to go
into production. Her two double berths are about 48" wide. It appears
the builder will seek to offer an introductory price of around
$310K-to-$320K (U.S.) Delivery from NZ to the U.S. west coast should be
around $35K -- delivery to the U.S. east coast another $5K to $10K.
Then, add another $20K to $30K for cruising equipment.

(6) Buzzard's Bay 33, with twin diesels. Base price of approx. $285K
This, and the Glacier Bay, are the only cats among these 6 with a top
speed above 20 to 22 knots. So, it's not surprising that these 2 cats
also appear to have the highest fuel consumption. (Their specifications
also point toward these 2 having the snuggest interior accommodations --
a possible partial explanation, along with hull design and standard
engine sizes, for their respective high rates of speed at max power.)

So, the earlier contention that there are "tons of boats" available at
the price of the BB-33 may be an exaggeration.

Now, what other power cats, in the 32' to 36' range, have I overlooked?

BTW: The previous writer also implied that "these days" bargain prices
are rampant. I'm sorry to report that the BEST prices were available
between about February and July, 2009. During the past couple of months,
the builders-and-dealers who made it through the summer of this major
recession, are now reporting a noticeable improvement in business and
sales. And, as a dealer, I'm no longer seeing the "firehouse" sales that
builders were offering us, to then offer to our clients, such as were
available during the first half of this year. Nonetheless, production
waiting times are still about 50% to 75% quicker than just 1.5 years
ago. And yes, there are some major manufacturers still offering slight
additional discounts (usually, it appears at this time, of around 5%).

I've just returned from the Annapolis sailboat and power boat shows.
Whew! There was quite a reduction in the number of boats on display.
Even more alarming, there was one manufacturer (exhibiting a cat in the
45' to 55' size range), who is, in my learned opinion, just about to go
out of business. (The police have already been called to his factory,
and there are employees who haven't been paid in 3 months!) As I saw a
couple folks beaming aboard the admittedly handsome big-cat on exhibit
by that problematic builder, I could only hope they weren't new buyers
who had just submitted a deposit check to the reps onboard. In fact, I'd
take a fairly long-odds wager that if that was the case, those folks
had, unknowingly, just kissed their 5-figure deposit(s) bye-bye forever.

And that brings up one of the most grave (if not outright frightening)
aspects facing those of you seeking to purchase a new boat. How can you
be sure you'll end up getting the boat you paid a deposit for? I know
for a fact, for example, that there is one builder who contributes to
this site on occasion, who (four years ago), took $50,000 from one of my
clients, and $10,000 from one of my dealers . . . and then left the
state. This occurred about 4 years ago. The WA state Attorney General is
seeking this (I must use the term loosely), "gentleman", but, given that
"white-collar crime" is low among any of the states' AG's, this
particular chap simply relocated, first to the S.E. region of the U.S.
The word on the grapevine a year later was that this same individual
took a father-son investor group for several hundred thousands of
dollars, and then fled that state. And now this builder has relocated to
Oregon, where he's begun building large power cats. Similarly, there is
a long-time builder here in WA state who recently took a former client
of mine for more than $1,000,000 . . . and delivered him a motor cat in
the 55' to 65' length so poorly built that when the buyer then sought to
insure the new vessel, he could find no certified surveyor who would
approve the boat for ocean cruising. Now that sad buyer is trying to
sell his twin-hulled white elephant. Guess how well that is NOT going!

How can you tell whether a builder is really legit? That's not that
easy to determine. Let's face it -- if well-established restaurants,
previously high-roller home developers, and even General Motors (for
cryin' out loud), can go belly up . . .anyone can!

But if an experienced boat dealer with a proven history won't take your
money if you insist on some particular builder, that may be a strong
sign that that's a questionable builder to work with. (Dealers are
bonded, and usually responsible for the deposit you post with them.) I'd
also suggest that if the builder says he can't build your new cat with a
receipt of only a 15% or 20% deposit from you (instead, he wants stage
payments from you), that isn't necessarily a sign of a builder with a
worrisome financial situation -- but it might be. Conversely, if the
builder WILL build you a complete boat, with only a 10% or 20% deposit,
he's likely to be a better funded entity. (But he could be just hoping
to take you for your deposit...period.)

The point is, if you're savvy enough not to send $500 to some
Nigerian-internet sob-story-scam, then engage in some due-diligence
BEFORE handing $50,000 or $100,000 to some unknown builder. You're well
paid if a hour or two of investigation saves you fifty-grand, right?!?

I know that among the catamaran dealers at the recent Annapolis show,
almost all of us knew about the builder exhibiting there who's already
on the verge of bankruptcy, and whose factory has already stopped
building cats . . . but very few show-goers had information about that
fact. (In fact, at most European shows, that exhibitor would probably
not have been allowed to have an exhibit. The European shows are more
rigorous in their inspection/homework regarding exhibitors' financial
status.)

Well, before I get even more "warm and fuzzy," I'll close.

Again, love to read about any other power cats in the 32' to 36' size range.

Regards,

Rod Gibbons
Cruising Cats USA
Seattle - SF Bay - HI

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:49:57 +0000
From: gram rupert gramario@tin.it
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay
Message-ID: 66A8EC48-66B2-4979-9082-939B9D2108EC@tin.it
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The author of this post is NOT a catamaran dealer.

Who am I to argue with a dealer who obviously has his finger on the
button (albeit with on eye on sales)? However, I fundamentally stand
by my previous post. It is a difficult time economically and there
are good occasions around, and the manufacturer who insists when his
product is "over-priced"* for a particular market risks going out of
business. In fact, Rod gives an example in his post.
A quick (20 second) search reveals the following:

Description of this 2007 Fountaine Pajot, Highland 35 Pilot Trawler
Catamaran For Sale

** Price drastically reduced by EUR40,000 to EUR170,000 for a quick
sale**

This Fountaine Pajot, Highland 35 Pilot Trawler catamaran is a brand
new model (2007) with additional factory installed complete with an
internal steering station

She is equipped with the slightly higher engines (Volvo D3 160hp,
same dimensions and weight).

This Fountaine Pajot Highland 35 is a fly bridge power trawler
catamaran, very safe and efficient in heavy weather. Max speed:
21.5kn and cruising speed: up to 19kn

This Fountaine Pajot Highland 35 has many extras including:-

Bow thruster with joystick and remote control
2.3m inox hydraulic gangway with joystick and remote control
Lofran 1200W anchor winch with joystick and remote control
14Kgr Fob anchor with 60m chain
Full teak at the cockpit
220V shore power and charger.
220V inverter.
DVD, CD, Mp3 players, Plasma TV.

There can be several reasons why prices are drastically reduced.
Could be personal conditions. Could be market conditions. Could be a
bit of both.

In any event. Opinions are opinions, and each has a right to his own.

gram.

Not always because it's not worth that particular price, but more
because people are less willing to pay that kind of price.

On 25 Oct 2009, at 09:35, Rod Gibbons wrote:

NOTE: The author of this post is a catamaran dealer.

I noticed in a recent posting that someone wrote there are "tons of
boats around " for the $285K base-price of the Buzzard's Bay 33.
I'm wondering if he was including monohulls, because in my
experience there aren't a "ton of catamarans" available in ANY
specific size or price range . . . and certainly not in the 32-to
36-foot range. But I assume there are more than a few members here
who would like to know what IS available in that, category.

So, let me get the ball rolling with a few names and facts, and
then others can add other models I've overlooked.

(1) There's the Glacier Bay 34. (Although I believe they've
recently terminated production, but recent-model used ones are out
there.) But when new and equipped with twin diesels, this cat,
reasonably well-equipped, could run from $400K to as much as $500K.

(2) Fountaine Pajot has its Highland 35. The base boat, with twin
diesels, delivered to the U.S. east coast, is about $365K --
cruise-equipped she'll readily reach $400K-to-$425K. She cruises at
15 knots, with a max speed of about 20-to-22 knots.

(3) The PDQ-34, before the end of production (equipped with twin
diesels -- cruise at 15 knots, max-speed about 20 knots), also
readily reached $375K to $425K, delivered to the U.S. with a
moderate amount of cruising equipment included.

(4) The Coastal Cat 34 (currently in production in Washington
state), has an introductory price of $315K. (Powered by twin 60-HP
outboards -- cruise at 15 knots, max-speed about 21 knots) Her two
double berths are each 60" wide. Figure on adding at least about
$25K to $30K of cruising equipment. (dinghy, outboard, ground
tackle, electronics, heat or air-conditioning, etc.) Delivery to
the U.S. east coast (by truck, possible given her 15'9" beam),
would run about $15K. (Which is $20K to $30K less than the delivery
price -- by ship -- of similar size power cats delivered from
Europe, S. Africa or Australia to the U.S..)

(5) Prowler 33. Manufactured in New Zealand, also outboard
powered. (The Prowler and the Coastal Cat are related designs from
Schionning designs of Australia). The latest builder of this boat
is about to go into production. Her two double berths are about 48"
wide. It appears the builder will seek to offer an introductory
price of around $310K-to-$320K (U.S.) Delivery from NZ to the U.S.
west coast should be around $35K -- delivery to the U.S. east coast
another $5K to $10K. Then, add another $20K to $30K for cruising
equipment.

(6) Buzzard's Bay 33, with twin diesels. Base price of approx.
$285K This, and the Glacier Bay, are the only cats among these 6
with a top speed above 20 to 22 knots. So, it's not surprising that
these 2 cats also appear to have the highest fuel consumption.
(Their specifications also point toward these 2 having the snuggest
interior accommodations -- a possible partial explanation, along
with hull design and standard engine sizes, for their respective
high rates of speed at max power.)

So, the earlier contention that there are "tons of boats" available
at the price of the BB-33 may be an exaggeration.

Now, what other power cats, in the 32' to 36' range, have I
overlooked?

BTW: The previous writer also implied that "these days" bargain
prices are rampant. I'm sorry to report that the BEST prices were
available between about February and July, 2009. During the past
couple of months, the builders-and-dealers who made it through the
summer of this major recession, are now reporting a noticeable
improvement in business and sales. And, as a dealer, I'm no longer
seeing the "firehouse" sales that builders were offering us, to
then offer to our clients, such as were available during the first
half of this year. Nonetheless, production waiting times are still
about 50% to 75% quicker than just 1.5 years ago. And yes, there
are some major manufacturers still offering slight additional
discounts (usually, it appears at this time, of around 5%).

I've just returned from the Annapolis sailboat and power boat
shows. Whew! There was quite a reduction in the number of boats on
display. Even more alarming, there was one manufacturer (exhibiting
a cat in the 45' to 55' size range), who is, in my learned opinion,
just about to go out of business. (The police have already been
called to his factory, and there are employees who haven't been
paid in 3 months!) As I saw a couple folks beaming aboard the
admittedly handsome big-cat on exhibit by that problematic builder,
I could only hope they weren't new buyers who had just submitted a
deposit check to the reps onboard. In fact, I'd take a fairly long-
odds wager that if that was the case, those folks had, unknowingly,
just kissed their 5-figure deposit(s) bye-bye forever.

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:14:51 -0400
From: "John Schieffelin" jsschieff@cox.net
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay Cat
Message-ID: 001d01ca5596$a9bad6d0$fd308470$@net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Georgs

I do not want this published because it is speculative, but I wonder if
Buzzards Bay Cats (MDCAT)are still in business? I have not seen one of their
boats at a boat show for several years, nor have they advertised in any of
the dozens of magazines I subscribe to, including "Power Catamaran." I agree
it is a terrific boat - I sea trialed one in Narragansett Bay four or five
years ago - but the founder seemed to have limited capital and they had
problems finding sub-contractor to build the boats. Last I heard they were
being built in Nova Scotia, but I doubt one has been built for a while since
they essentially ceased marketing a couple of years ago.

Regards,

John Schieffelin

Jamestown, RI

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 09:28:04 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
To: PCW List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay
Message-ID: C709CAA4.5A6C%deering@ak.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

There are also the aluminum boat builders in the Northwest such as Armstrong
Marine: http://www.armstrongmarine.com/ Their boats are in that price
range, but I don't think they sell through dealers. Each boat is a custom
build.

My new (last spring) aluminum cat was built by Maxweld boats, who just
folded a couple months ago.

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:16:59 +0100
From: "Tim Jordaan" tradesure@libello.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay and the rest.
Message-ID: LBECKKBLHOPINOAMBEEGKEOECEAA.tradesure@libello.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Rod and Gram,
You are both correct, there are many vessels for sale
at $280.000 but not many power catamaran 30 to 33ft
well designed and built at that price.

                    There are only one or two mass produced power

catamarans manufacturers worldwide, and those vessels are sold off when
new vessels come on stream each year, bit like cars,
floor planning.

                    In many cases most power catamaran builders are

small, dedicated family builders, who can and only will build
a handful of vessels each year, as they have been
through the highs and lows over the past 20 years.
So when the market slows down, these well established
accredited builders build less and sooner or later there once again arises
a demand.

                   Constructing 30ft to 33ft power catamaran is more

intensive and extreme compared to the smaller 24ft to 28footer's.
The smaller vessel is usually very basic, 2
outboards, toilet with I or 2 other additional extras.
The 30ft to 333ft power catamaran is a huge leap, and
offers many options and luxuries to the clients.
These models as see in the Buzzard Bay usually offer
2 of 3 cabins, full toilet and shower, hot water, galley stove, fridge,
electric windlass, electronics, good seating, etc,
with the only option that can make a price difference, fitted either with
outboards
motors, or alternatively inboards, therefore the
build parameters is quite different and costly.

                  2 more vessel to add to the list is the Arrow Cat 30

designed by Roger Hill and the Aventure Cat 30 designed by Angelo Lavranos
The Aventure is fitted either with 2x150hp outboards
priced $200.000, or with 2x160hp diesel Yanmar inboards, priced $240.000.
The Arrow CAT 30 I believe is very well priced and
well equipped.

                  Tim Jordaan.

-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of Rod Gibbons
Sent: 25 October 2009 10:36
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Rough seas stuff - Buzzards Bay