I was looking at a few different alternatives for a transportable, non-permanently powered on, DIY, voltage reference and I picked the LM399 as one of the candidates. The LM399 is a buried zener reference with built-in temperature regulation and an integrated thermal insulation cover. It is very simple to implerment, only one resistor needed. The downsides: - it has a nominal drift in the order of 10ppm/sqrt1000h (as good as any except the LTZ1000) - Its a bit sensitive to input volgage, due to a 1ohm input impedance. - Its a bit noisy, about 10uVptp. - Output voltage tolerance is poor and at around 6.9V I set one of these up and, after a day of stabilizing, found the noise about as stated in the datasheet. However, noise in the datasheet is specified for 10Hz and up. The real problem to was at lower frequency. Overnight, the 10s averaged values where slowly drifting around about 10uV ptp. Now I made twelve LM399 parallelled on a simple breadboard, running at 1.8mA each, plus heating, a total of around 200mA. Like the first, I use simple 2K7 1% metal film resistors for current limiting at 12V supply. The resistors do not need to be very high-spec as errors are attenuated by a factor 1:2700 (1R/2K7). There is another 2K7 resistor per zener for output averaging. This board, after a few hours stabilizing, measures 0.2uVptp, 10s averaged, over 6 hours. My 7.5digit NI PXI-4071 DMM has 0.1uV resolution on the 10V range. So I need a better method... But anyhow, id say it looks promising. It seems like the low frequency noise is cancelling well and does not come from the power supply. I will now leave this board for a half-year burn-in. Back to the original idea; I am assuming that much of the long term drift is due to the high, fixed to 90C, internal heating temperature in the LM399. To find out; after the half-year burn-in, I will turn off half of the board (six zeners) and turn them on for something like a few hours / times per week only, while leaving the other half on all the time. Over another half year, I should be able to see if there is any significant long term difference between the two sides. If whole idea turns out sour, it's still be interesting to me as a volt-nut wannabe. The construction is simple and the price of a dozen LM399 is less than one LTZ1000 with required precision resistors... At some point I will probably make a proper board with built-in power / voltage regulator, output buffer etc. In the mean time, I will build a few other boards with other ICs, including the LTZ1000. I will be posting progress now and then.

Hello Jan, The LM399 is being far from bad as stated in the datasheet. The 10ppm/khr (8-20ppm) is a figure which is very conservative. (perhaps directly after soldering process). Most of my LM399 are within 1-2 ppm/khr after a run in phase of 1-2 khrs. And the typically drift of instruments with LM399 as reference have about 1-2ppm/year drift after some ageing. A large part of power supply sensitivity on output voltage comes from heater temperature setpoint dependancy on heater voltage/current. The effect is larger with lower supply voltages. (especially in the 9-10V range). You should always use a well stabilized (some applications specify 0.1%) power supply >= 15V with low tempco for the heater. With best regards Andreas Am 29.03.2014 10:47, schrieb Jan Fredriksson: > I was looking at a few different alternatives for a transportable, > non-permanently powered on, DIY, voltage reference and I picked the LM399 > as one of the candidates. > > The LM399 is a buried zener reference with built-in temperature regulation > and an integrated thermal insulation cover. It is very simple to > implerment, only one resistor needed. > > The downsides: > - it has a nominal drift in the order of 10ppm/sqrt1000h (as good as any > except the LTZ1000) > - Its a bit sensitive to input volgage, due to a 1ohm input impedance. > - Its a bit noisy, about 10uVptp. > - Output voltage tolerance is poor and at around 6.9V > > I set one of these up and, after a day of stabilizing, found the noise > about as stated in the datasheet. However, noise in the datasheet is > specified for 10Hz and up. The real problem to was at lower > frequency. Overnight, the 10s averaged values where slowly drifting around > about 10uV ptp. > > Now I made twelve LM399 parallelled on a simple breadboard, running at > 1.8mA each, plus heating, a total of around 200mA. > > Like the first, I use simple 2K7 1% metal film resistors for current > limiting at 12V supply. The resistors do not need to be very high-spec > as errors are attenuated by a factor 1:2700 (1R/2K7). There is another 2K7 > resistor per zener for output averaging. > > This board, after a few hours stabilizing, measures 0.2uVptp, 10s averaged, > over 6 hours. > > My 7.5digit NI PXI-4071 DMM has 0.1uV resolution on the 10V range. So I > need a better method... But anyhow, id say it looks promising. It seems > like the low frequency noise is cancelling well and does not come from the > power supply. > > I will now leave this board for a half-year burn-in. > > Back to the original idea; I am assuming that much of the long term > drift is due to the high, fixed to 90C, internal heating temperature in the > LM399. To find out; after the half-year burn-in, I will turn off half of > the board (six zeners) and turn them on for something like a few hours / > times per week only, while leaving the other half on all the time. Over > another half year, I should be able to see if there is any significant long > term difference between the two sides. > > If whole idea turns out sour, it's still be interesting to me as a volt-nut > wannabe. The construction is simple and the price of a dozen LM399 is less > than one LTZ1000 with required precision resistors... > > At some point I will probably make a proper board with built-in power / > voltage regulator, output buffer etc. > > In the mean time, I will build a few other boards with other ICs, including > the LTZ1000. > > I will be posting progress now and then. > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

LM399 good On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Andreas Jahn <Andreas_-_Jahn@t-online.de>wrote: > Hello Jan, > > The LM399 is being far from bad as stated in the datasheet. > The 10ppm/khr (8-20ppm) is a figure which is very conservative. > (perhaps directly after soldering process). > > Most of my LM399 are within 1-2 ppm/khr after a run in phase of 1-2 khrs. > And the typically drift of instruments with LM399 as reference > have about 1-2ppm/year drift after some ageing. > > A large part of power supply sensitivity on output voltage comes > from heater temperature setpoint dependancy on heater voltage/current. > The effect is larger with lower supply voltages. (especially in the 9-10V > range). > You should always use a well stabilized (some applications specify 0.1%) > power supply >= 15V with low tempco for the heater. > > With best regards > > Andreas > > > > > Am 29.03.2014 10:47, schrieb Jan Fredriksson: > >> I was looking at a few different alternatives for a transportable, >> non-permanently powered on, DIY, voltage reference and I picked the LM399 >> as one of the candidates. >> >> The LM399 is a buried zener reference with built-in temperature regulation >> and an integrated thermal insulation cover. It is very simple to >> implerment, only one resistor needed. >> >> The downsides: >> - it has a nominal drift in the order of 10ppm/sqrt1000h (as good as any >> except the LTZ1000) >> - Its a bit sensitive to input volgage, due to a 1ohm input impedance. >> - Its a bit noisy, about 10uVptp. >> - Output voltage tolerance is poor and at around 6.9V >> >> I set one of these up and, after a day of stabilizing, found the noise >> about as stated in the datasheet. However, noise in the datasheet is >> specified for 10Hz and up. The real problem to was at lower >> frequency. Overnight, the 10s averaged values where slowly drifting around >> about 10uV ptp. >> >> Now I made twelve LM399 parallelled on a simple breadboard, running at >> 1.8mA each, plus heating, a total of around 200mA. >> >> Like the first, I use simple 2K7 1% metal film resistors for current >> limiting at 12V supply. The resistors do not need to be very high-spec >> as errors are attenuated by a factor 1:2700 (1R/2K7). There is another 2K7 >> resistor per zener for output averaging. >> >> This board, after a few hours stabilizing, measures 0.2uVptp, 10s >> averaged, >> over 6 hours. >> >> My 7.5digit NI PXI-4071 DMM has 0.1uV resolution on the 10V range. So I >> need a better method... But anyhow, id say it looks promising. It seems >> like the low frequency noise is cancelling well and does not come from the >> power supply. >> >> I will now leave this board for a half-year burn-in. >> >> Back to the original idea; I am assuming that much of the long term >> drift is due to the high, fixed to 90C, internal heating temperature in >> the >> LM399. To find out; after the half-year burn-in, I will turn off half of >> the board (six zeners) and turn them on for something like a few hours / >> times per week only, while leaving the other half on all the time. Over >> another half year, I should be able to see if there is any significant >> long >> term difference between the two sides. >> >> If whole idea turns out sour, it's still be interesting to me as a >> volt-nut >> wannabe. The construction is simple and the price of a dozen LM399 is less >> than one LTZ1000 with required precision resistors... >> >> At some point I will probably make a proper board with built-in power / >> voltage regulator, output buffer etc. >> >> In the mean time, I will build a few other boards with other ICs, >> including >> the LTZ1000. >> >> I will be posting progress now and then. >> _______________________________________________ >> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

I may by mistake have sent a mail to the group containing nothing but the text "LM399 good". If so I am sorry - I was just making some notes (in the wrong editor). Roy On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:37 PM, r j <rjinspace@gmail.com> wrote: > LM399 good > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Andreas Jahn <Andreas_-_Jahn@t-online.de>wrote: > >> Hello Jan, >> >> The LM399 is being far from bad as stated in the datasheet. >> The 10ppm/khr (8-20ppm) is a figure which is very conservative. >> (perhaps directly after soldering process). >> >> Most of my LM399 are within 1-2 ppm/khr after a run in phase of 1-2 khrs. >> And the typically drift of instruments with LM399 as reference >> have about 1-2ppm/year drift after some ageing. >> >> A large part of power supply sensitivity on output voltage comes >> from heater temperature setpoint dependancy on heater voltage/current. >> The effect is larger with lower supply voltages. (especially in the 9-10V >> range). >> You should always use a well stabilized (some applications specify 0.1%) >> power supply >= 15V with low tempco for the heater. >> >> With best regards >> >> Andreas >> >> >> >> >> Am 29.03.2014 10:47, schrieb Jan Fredriksson: >> >>> I was looking at a few different alternatives for a transportable, >>> non-permanently powered on, DIY, voltage reference and I picked the LM399 >>> as one of the candidates. >>> >>> The LM399 is a buried zener reference with built-in temperature >>> regulation >>> and an integrated thermal insulation cover. It is very simple to >>> implerment, only one resistor needed. >>> >>> The downsides: >>> - it has a nominal drift in the order of 10ppm/sqrt1000h (as good as any >>> except the LTZ1000) >>> - Its a bit sensitive to input volgage, due to a 1ohm input impedance. >>> - Its a bit noisy, about 10uVptp. >>> - Output voltage tolerance is poor and at around 6.9V >>> >>> I set one of these up and, after a day of stabilizing, found the noise >>> about as stated in the datasheet. However, noise in the datasheet is >>> specified for 10Hz and up. The real problem to was at lower >>> frequency. Overnight, the 10s averaged values where slowly drifting >>> around >>> about 10uV ptp. >>> >>> Now I made twelve LM399 parallelled on a simple breadboard, running at >>> 1.8mA each, plus heating, a total of around 200mA. >>> >>> Like the first, I use simple 2K7 1% metal film resistors for current >>> limiting at 12V supply. The resistors do not need to be very high-spec >>> as errors are attenuated by a factor 1:2700 (1R/2K7). There is another >>> 2K7 >>> resistor per zener for output averaging. >>> >>> This board, after a few hours stabilizing, measures 0.2uVptp, 10s >>> averaged, >>> over 6 hours. >>> >>> My 7.5digit NI PXI-4071 DMM has 0.1uV resolution on the 10V range. So I >>> need a better method... But anyhow, id say it looks promising. It seems >>> like the low frequency noise is cancelling well and does not come from >>> the >>> power supply. >>> >>> I will now leave this board for a half-year burn-in. >>> >>> Back to the original idea; I am assuming that much of the long term >>> drift is due to the high, fixed to 90C, internal heating temperature in >>> the >>> LM399. To find out; after the half-year burn-in, I will turn off half of >>> the board (six zeners) and turn them on for something like a few hours / >>> times per week only, while leaving the other half on all the time. Over >>> another half year, I should be able to see if there is any significant >>> long >>> term difference between the two sides. >>> >>> If whole idea turns out sour, it's still be interesting to me as a >>> volt-nut >>> wannabe. The construction is simple and the price of a dozen LM399 is >>> less >>> than one LTZ1000 with required precision resistors... >>> >>> At some point I will probably make a proper board with built-in power / >>> voltage regulator, output buffer etc. >>> >>> In the mean time, I will build a few other boards with other ICs, >>> including >>> the LTZ1000. >>> >>> I will be posting progress now and then. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >>> mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >