I think it is important to note the second from final paragraph in
Arild's excellent list.  This is a type of specialized survey....  very
focused and very detailed... that you would pay a substantial additional
amount to have performed.  This level of inspection and detail would
never show up in a "normal" boat survey.  That is, a survey that most of
us would have performed pre-purchase or for insurance purposes.

I am guessing that an electrical survey of this caliber for a 40 ft
typical recreational vessel would cost about $1,500.00 over a "regular"
survey.  Arild can comment on what he might charge or what he has seen
charged out there.

I have only seen this level of electrical survey performed on commercial
vessels (in which case it is even more detailed and much more expensive)
or on larger and more complex cruising yachts (again, more expensive.)

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea.  It's a good idea in fact.  But
don't expect your "regular" boat surveyor to come up with this level of
detail for his regular "per foot" survey price.

Joe Engel
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
A Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:10 AM
To: Bob Peterson; 'Trawler World List'
Subject: T&T: RE: What should surveyors check? Was: 110v wiring

I would like to address the electrical parts of Bob's question.

This post is not intended as a solicitation for work.  But as a
decleartion of disclosure, I do electrical surveys from time to time and
this is simply an indication of how I see the job should be done.  The
list is not complete or comprehensive. It is merely a guideline.

Regards

Arild

Nick Meloy wrote:
To enlarge on this thread, since such a detailed survey is not the norm
(or at least I don't think it is the norm), one wonders what the typical
seller will think (and do) when presented with the findings of such a
detailed survey.  One also wonders what the reaction of the typical
broker would be to such a survey, and what the broker would tell the
seller.

REPLY
I would agree that it is unusual to hire a professional to do such a
detailed survey at the present time.
There was also a time when hiring a mechanic to conduct a seperate engine
survey was not the norm.

There was a time when boat owners were fewer in number but they as a group
usually had more knowledge about the boats they used. These owners would as
a matter of course conduct a pretty indepth examination the first time they
looked at a vessel for sale.  By the time they had looked at a boat two or
three time and decided they might actually make an ofer they already had a
good idea of what to expect.

Today's ownes as a group (and by that I do not mean just Trawler list
subscribers ) have less intimate knowledge of contemporary boats and these
same bnoats are far moer complex in construction and design than what was
the norm twnety or forty years ago.

Boat sellers as well as brokers have also become more sophisticated in how
they present their offering to the market place.
Judging by some reports posted to this list this arcane artform may have
reached its heights in Southern Florida. < grin >

Consequently it is becoming more difficult for the "average" boat buyer -
especialy a firsttime buyer of a used boat to judge and accurately determine
the real condition of any particular boat and estimate just how much work is
involved in making it  fit their expected use.

When the cost of a rewire can amount to $30,000 - $70,000 and the repowering
of a typical 40 footer might run close to $100,000 the picture changes. At
that point the repair cost becomes an appreciable percentage of the used
boat purchase price. The buyer wants some assurances that their purchase wil
not turn into a lemon in the next year or two.
If they lack the ability to make such examinations themselves and do not
have friends whose opinion they trust, what else can they do?

Judging from the sort of comments posted to this list by many frequent
contributors, most of them would not hesitate to rely on their own judgement
when assessing a potential purchase.
But for every competent poster there are dozens of lurkers who feel anything
but confident they could perform a similar survey and not miss some big
problems that could bite them later on.

The original question was, is it reasonable to expect a general surveyor to
find all sorts of specialized and technical problems not evidnet to the
naked eye.
The answer is NO!
If you, the buyer, expect such problems to be uncovered during a survey,
then hire a professional specialist to do the survey and pay accordingly.

Or trust your own judgement.

regards

Arild

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004

Nick wrote:

If the buyer expects such major problems to be encountered, where the
cost to correct the deficiencies approaches a major percentage of the
asking price, then the buyer best have a good understanding with the
seller before doing such a detailed survey,

REPLY

Or the survey is a means to dispel your fears of what a worst case scenario
might be.
In larger boats,especially custom or semi custom, it is normal to have a
surveyor or at least the vessel's Captain  supervise the construction.

Some buyes of mass production boats like Carvers and Bayliners have wished
they had done so when their new boat was ordered at the January boat show
and the boat delivered in July the following summer.

It used to be that anyone buying into a 40 foot or bigger boat was always
well experienced and knowledgable.
While true 20 - 30 years ago, today I see a lot of new to boating people buy
vessels in that size range and even larger.
They really do not know wehat to look for and when they see it they  do not
know what to make of it.
However they have the money and they want the toys.
So they pays you now or they pays you later. Or they learn the hard way!

Which is what this list is all about!  We share knowledge and experiences.
Freely!
Would you value my advice more if you had to pay for it?

Cheers

Arild

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004

Arild wrote "Today's ownes as a group (and by that I do not mean just
Trawler list
subscribers ) have less intimate knowledge"

Boy is that the truth. I mean no offense but there are a bunch of
owners/potential owners of 24-30 foot sports cruisers that have no idea what
is in/on/under their boats and if they know, they have less idea why or how
it works. For some examples just lurk around a couple of web forums that
cater to them.

Bill

Anyone on the list with some design experience in coolioing systems?

The complaint:  the temp gauge is leading low.
Closed cooling system and the diesel is run had for an hour before checking
the reading.
Gauge reads in the lower half of th range.
An IR temp reading shows the  temp sender and surrounding block is siting at
165F which is prety well what the sacale reads.
The thermostat is a standard 185F unit.

So why is the engineblock  running cool and why is the cylinder head not
hotter after running hard for an hour.
The heat exchanger was hotter than the sending unit.  Too efficient?

Arild

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004

Are you running it under a load? Without a bit of a load a diesel will run a
long time before getting get up to temp.
Bill