power spectrum of hard limiter output
Hm Magnus -
I heard of it as a standard text book but never looked inside. And not
known that it describes limiter behaviour.
Anyway. Now I have a version of 2004, 3rd edition, and cannot find the
mentioned chapter. Please post a little more info, so I can find with
keywords.
Thank you!
- Henry
Magnus Danielson schrieb:
On 26/01/11 00:35, ehydra wrote:
Hi Magnus -
What book? This one maybe:
Gardner F M PHASELOCK TECHNIQUES Wiley & Sons 1966
Yes, but there is later revisions of it. A classic on PLLs.
Cheers,
Magnus
Hi
If anybody is doing PLL's and does not have a copy of that book - go out and
get it.
In the second edition, limiters are in section 6.4 starting on page 125. The
"good stuff" (complete with Bessel functions) is on pages 126 and 127.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of ehydra
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:31 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] power spectrum of hard limiter output
Hm Magnus -
I heard of it as a standard text book but never looked inside. And not
known that it describes limiter behaviour.
Anyway. Now I have a version of 2004, 3rd edition, and cannot find the
mentioned chapter. Please post a little more info, so I can find with
keywords.
Thank you!
- Henry
Magnus Danielson schrieb:
On 26/01/11 00:35, ehydra wrote:
Hi Magnus -
What book? This one maybe:
Gardner F M PHASELOCK TECHNIQUES Wiley & Sons 1966
Yes, but there is later revisions of it. A classic on PLLs.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Even the original is a good classic on PLLs. I have an original photocopy of
the typed pre-publication volume, as well as the actual book. Regarding hard
limiters, we did a lot of study on their behavior on the resulting power
spectra. We use a one bit quantizer of ASW signals and then displayed the
output power spectra on graph paper, back in the late 60's early 70's. I
have some of the original papers on the effects of hard limiting of signals,
with AWGN, however, they are downstairs in the "inner sanctum" and to find
them would be a challenge. Maybe if I get ambitious I'll venture downstairs
and see if I can locate the folders. Would be glad to scan them. Regards -
Mike
Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 12:34 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] power spectrum of hard limiter output
On 26/01/11 00:35, ehydra wrote:
Hi Magnus -
What book? This one maybe:
Gardner F M PHASELOCK TECHNIQUES Wiley & Sons 1966
Yes, but there is later revisions of it. A classic on PLLs.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
On 27/01/11 01:30, ehydra wrote:
Hm Magnus -
I heard of it as a standard text book but never looked inside. And not
known that it describes limiter behaviour.
Anyway. Now I have a version of 2004, 3rd edition, and cannot find the
mentioned chapter. Please post a little more info, so I can find with
keywords.
Mine is second edition.
It is part of Chapter six - Loop components and there is in mine a
sub-chapter 6.4 Limiters which gives these descriptions prior to discuss
noise effects on phase-detectors.
Cheers,
Magnus
Hi Mike,
On 27/01/11 18:25, Mike Feher wrote:
Even the original is a good classic on PLLs. I have an original photocopy of
the typed pre-publication volume, as well as the actual book. Regarding hard
limiters, we did a lot of study on their behavior on the resulting power
spectra. We use a one bit quantizer of ASW signals and then displayed the
output power spectra on graph paper, back in the late 60's early 70's. I
have some of the original papers on the effects of hard limiting of signals,
with AWGN, however, they are downstairs in the "inner sanctum" and to find
them would be a challenge. Maybe if I get ambitious I'll venture downstairs
and see if I can locate the folders. Would be glad to scan them.
Please do. I enjoy reading old papers. Helps to get things in
perspective. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
I found chapter Appendix 7A "Analysis of interference in a hard limiter"
There is a half page with a couple of formulas. Not much, not
practically oriented. Only idealized hard-limiters.
I'm interested in SOFT-limiters!
Hm. Does the writer seen a real working system once upon in time?
- Henry
Magnus Danielson schrieb:
Hi,
On 27/01/11 01:30, ehydra wrote:
Hm Magnus -
I heard of it as a standard text book but never looked inside. And not
known that it describes limiter behaviour.
Anyway. Now I have a version of 2004, 3rd edition, and cannot find the
mentioned chapter. Please post a little more info, so I can find with
keywords.
Mine is second edition.
It is part of Chapter six - Loop components and there is in mine a
sub-chapter 6.4 Limiters which gives these descriptions prior to discuss
noise effects on phase-detectors.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 1/27/11 11:19 AM, ehydra wrote:
I found chapter Appendix 7A "Analysis of interference in a hard limiter"
There is a half page with a couple of formulas. Not much, not
practically oriented. Only idealized hard-limiters.
I'm interested in SOFT-limiters!
Soft limiters are even more complex to analyze.
Most of the hardlimiter in noise papers point out that when the
signal/noise ratio is in the right range, it acts like a soft limiter
with a gaussian characteristic.
On 27/01/11 20:19, ehydra wrote:
I found chapter Appendix 7A "Analysis of interference in a hard limiter"
There is a half page with a couple of formulas. Not much, not
practically oriented. Only idealized hard-limiters.
I'm interested in SOFT-limiters!
Jim's problem was with a hard-limiter so what I tossed his way was
relevant to him.
For soft-limiters, papers like this may be of assistance:
http://webs.wichita.edu/depttools/depttoolsmemberfiles/ECE/Kwon%20Wireless/95Aug.pdf
Hm. Does the writer seen a real working system once upon in time?
Yes. What defines a working system is however covering a lot of systems
and particulars of some systems can cover many books on its own without
making other things irrelevant.
Cheers,
Magnus
Magnus Danielson schrieb:
On 27/01/11 20:19, ehydra wrote:
I found chapter Appendix 7A "Analysis of interference in a hard limiter"
There is a half page with a couple of formulas. Not much, not
practically oriented. Only idealized hard-limiters.
I'm interested in SOFT-limiters!
Jim's problem was with a hard-limiter so what I tossed his way was
relevant to him.
I must say 'soft-limiter' is new to me, too! Sorry for pirate a thread.
For soft-limiters, papers like this may be of assistance:
http://webs.wichita.edu/depttools/depttoolsmemberfiles/ECE/Kwon%20Wireless/95Aug.pdf
Interesting. 4dB below limit.
Hm. Does the writer seen a real working system once upon in time?
Yes. What defines a working system is however covering a lot of systems
and particulars of some systems can cover many books on its own without
making other things irrelevant.
He he. We have many nonsense amateur info on the Web. Then many
theoretical papers. A small gap between is useful for the practical
oriented people. Unfortunately, this gap is just to slim.
I find it more and more curious a working concept not to find in the
I-net. I'm looking several weeks. Maybe wrong keywords.
Thanks!
- Henry
On 28/01/11 03:33, ehydra wrote:
Magnus Danielson schrieb:
On 27/01/11 20:19, ehydra wrote:
I found chapter Appendix 7A "Analysis of interference in a hard limiter"
There is a half page with a couple of formulas. Not much, not
practically oriented. Only idealized hard-limiters.
I'm interested in SOFT-limiters!
Jim's problem was with a hard-limiter so what I tossed his way was
relevant to him.
I must say 'soft-limiter' is new to me, too! Sorry for pirate a thread.
For soft-limiters, papers like this may be of assistance:
http://webs.wichita.edu/depttools/depttoolsmemberfiles/ECE/Kwon%20Wireless/95Aug.pdf
Interesting. 4dB below limit.
Hm. Does the writer seen a real working system once upon in time?
Yes. What defines a working system is however covering a lot of
systems and particulars of some systems can cover many books on its
own without making other things irrelevant.
He he. We have many nonsense amateur info on the Web. Then many
theoretical papers. A small gap between is useful for the practical
oriented people. Unfortunately, this gap is just to slim.
I find it more and more curious a working concept not to find in the
I-net. I'm looking several weeks. Maybe wrong keywords.
Well, have you considered what an AGC might do for you?
It has been the traditional way of reducing the effect of signal level
on phase-detector gain and hence on the loop gain. The hard-limiter text
is to be seen in this context where the SNR steers the compression
factor, i.e. change of loop gain.
Cheers,
Magnus