Hi Maurice:

I don't know whose stories you've been reading, but there is plenty of
real-world experience out there: Hiscock, Pardey, Dashew, et al.  You  just don't
have the right boat for a drogue, that's all! :-/

First you dismiss the writings of people such as the aforementioned who  have
deployed sea anchors in storms and then you proceed to tell us how you'd do
it! Well, I haven't done it, either, but I have studied how to, and I know
some  people who are less capable than I, physically, who have done it, too.
And, you are right, you won't be able to counter chafe or adjust your rode  if
you can't go out on the bow of your conventional trawler yacht,  which is one
reason why I didn't buy one. <BG>

Regards,

John
"Seahorse"

Maurice wrote:

Warning, I'm about to mount the soap box <VBG>.

The  problem with this topic on other lists has been manifold.  First,  nearly
all the respondents have never used a sea anchor or drogue, and I  suspect
that most don't even own either.  Second, we keep getting the  same dogma
repeated as each inexperienced person passes on his or her  favorite war
story or quote from some manual.  Just because somebody  writes it in a book
does not necessarily make it so!  We keep getting  sailboat information, much
of which probably does not apply well to our  boats, as most trawlers have
much more windage and an entirely different  underwater hull shape.  And,
finally, there seems to be constant  confusion as to the role of the drogue
vs. the sea anchor, possibly driven by  terminology disagreement.  Now, with
that off my chest, here is my  disclaimer.  Although we have repeatedly
rigged our chute and drogue for  long passages, we have never had to use
either and hope not to.  On with  my [less than experienced]
thoughts...forgive me for straying from the  original question, which really
concerned chafe.

Terminology:  We  consider a drogue to be something towed behind the boat, to
keep it from  yawing and broaching while running before the storm.  We
consider a sea  anchor or "chute" to be something deployed from the bow to
keep it into the  weather while riding out a storm.

Drogues:  One of the posts on this  thread mentions a Jordan series drogue
and sea anchor in the same  sentence.  As its name implies, a Jordan is not a
sea anchor; it's a  drogue.  And IMHO it has insufficient resistance to keep
a trawler (let  alone a sailboat) bow into the weather if deployed as a
chute.  Aboard  AKAMA we carry a Para-anchors of Australia double drogue.  We
rig one or  both to an 80 foot line that we carry in the lazerette.  We doubt
we  will ever use it for the following reasons.  One, most trawlers have  some
sort of flat transom.  Krogens have very little hull in the water  below the
transom, just enough to keep the hull zincs wet, so it is nearly a  canoe
stern below the water and a flat stern above.  Nevertheless, we  think that
the action of huge waves passing under the boat would raise havoc  with stern
slap.  We've seen some trawler transoms that are so thin that  we think they
would risk punching through or at least cracking, for example,  some of the
Choy Lees.  Two, if you have hydraulic stabilizers, our  experience is that
the last thing you want to do is deploy something that  will slow the boat
down to the point where the sea runs faster than the  boat.  Indeed, when
running before a storm we generally speed up,  admittedly, we've only
experienced up to gale force winds, not a serious  storm.  The stabilizer
vanes get caught in "backwards" water flow,  sometimes even when centered,
and yaw the boat.  Third, most trawlers  have no grinders on the stern (or
any at all for that matter).  Once a  drogue of any size is deployed in any
sort of sea there is no way to adjust  the bridle from side to side (to
assist with steering) or to retrieve  it.  We carry one of those Chicago
Cutlery "Miracle Knives" and if we  need to we would simply cut it away.
Finally, and most importantly, we are  concerned that wave action might carry
the drogue or its line into the  propeller.

Sea anchors:  We carry a 30-foot Para-anchors of  Australia chute.  This we
think we might use some day and it gets rigged  before any long passage.  Any
discussion about chutes inevitably  includes a post by some well-meaning
person quoting some well intended book  on how to deploy the thing off the
bow.  We can't think of a more  asinine place to be on a power boat in a
storm (or a sailboat for that  matter).  We have a nylon rode in the port
locker, the bitter end of  which has chain on it.  Actually, this is our
secondary anchor rode,  which is part chain and part rope, turned the wrong
way around.  We lead  it over the bow roller and outside the boat to the
stern cockpit until the  chain part extends about a foot beyond the bow
roller.  This we  hope will minimize chafe where it leaves the bow.  The
chain is wrapped  around a heavy cleat and below decks a rod is run through a
link.  Ditching it would entail removing the rod.  More probably it would
foul  and have to be cut.  Cutting it away would require someone to go out  on
the bow, which we don't plan to ever do, but that is why we only leave  a
foot of chain exposed...the Miracle Knife would be used.  The nylon  rode is
attached to the stanchions along the side of the boat with light  cable ties.
In the aft cockpit the rode is piled in figure-of-eight and  attached to the
chute.  To deploy we would turn to weather (a dangerous  maneuver in its own
right) throw it over the side, drift aft, hoping not to  broach.  We recon
with our windage, our 400 feet of rode would pay out  rather rapidly.

As for the length of rode, two wave lengths are  consistently mentioned and
books show a nice neat diagram how this is  supposed to keep the anchor
parked neatly behind a wave.  Bullsh!t!  None of the people espousing this
theory could ever have been  caught in much of a storm.  Our experience is
that the huge waves are  very confused, with no consistent distance between
them.  Moreover,  there are usually very deep breaks between waves through
which the chute  could pull, not one nice continuous wave followed by another
some set  distance away.  Even if there were, nobody we know has the means to
pay  out and pull in the sea anchor rode to put the chute nicely behind the
second  wave, which leads us to retrieval.  Again, conventional wisdom  and
writing implies that this is simple.  We doubt that even with our  tripping
line and float arrangement that we would ever be able to get the  damned
thing back aboard, unless we wait for the storm to be completely over  before
pushing on...yea' right!  Again, the Miracle Knife is our  probable solution
to "adjustment and retrieval".

Well, enough  ranting.  We bought all this stuff because for us, as  full-time
cruisers, it is cheap insurance.  We've talked to hundreds of  other boaties
who have done likewise, none of whom has ever deployed the  chute in a
serious sea.    But, we have thought through (carefully  we hope) the rigging
and deployment issue, including the probability of  chafe.

Here's hoping that none of us ever needs to use a drogue or a  chute!

Cheers,
Maurice
MV AKAMA
KK 48 Whaleback
(Currently in  New Zealand and moving soon to Australia)

Hi all, this thread on Sea anchors and drogues is a very important
discussion.

I have some experience with a storm anchor but none with a storm drogue. The
experience with the storm anchor off the bow of a sailboat had an unhappy
result of pitchpoling once and rolling twice while it was deployed in large
confused breaking seas and winds over 80 kts.

The boat was lying well to the anchor until a large counter sea came from
the aft quarter and lifted the stern over the bow. The mast was lost on this
pitchpole. In the next half hour two more counter seas came and rolled the
boat over twice. Most of the rest of the deck gear was lost at this time.

Lesson learned?

1. Storm seas are seldom from one direction or even from the current wind
   direction. Seas are very steep & confused near the eye of a storm as the
   wind/seas are changing rapidly.
2. A sea anchor might work for more predictable situations except in a storm
   nothing is predictable other than it is usually dark for some reason!
3. Very few power boats would not have remained floating had they been
   pitchpoled and rolled, IMO. I doubt that any of the boats we all have on
   this list would survive this.
4. On our present boat I know it can't take a roll so we have looked at the
   drogue as a better alternative than the hard to set sea anchor with its
   attendant issues. I don't believe a sea anchor could be deployed from the
   bow during any kind of a serious sea even if it did work.

Think about this..keeping the bow into the wind/wave requires lots of power
and a very good throttle person working the wheel/engines. The bow person
needs to be harnessed on which makes movement and deployment hazardous.
Waves tend to wash everything down the deck, gravity abandons you as the
boat lifts/drops and soon you are wound up in the gear with your
harness/jack lines entangled.....no thanks. Then if a wave washes any part
of it over board the prop will snatch it. Ever have a spinnaker drop in the
water? All control of the boat is lost! If the helmsman misses a wave and
you get sideways all the gear will wash over in the roll......
I think you see that the bow is not a place to be when the chips are down.

On the stern you have a chance of having the house shelter you while you get
organized. Picking a wave to turn down on is probably the toughest part.
Catch it wrong and you don't need the drogue.

However once deployed keeping enough power on to never allow slack in the
bridle would seem to be a far safer from a crew and boat option.
If the aft of the house has doors or windows that you are worried about then
make up some storm plates. Even if you cover a door 3 feet from the bottom
you can still get in yet have increased the freeboard 3 feet.

The drogue as Mike illustrates is designed to keep the boat straight with
the bad seas...i.e. those that would accelerate you and cause a pitchpole or
broach.

Rudder issues are a problem with sea anchors as the boat accelerates
backward the strain is enormous. Few are designed with these loads in mind.

Now what are we doing out in these conditions anyhow? With today's weather
forecasts and ships observations along with satellites it's a lot harder to
get in a situation where the bottom drops out. This is more true on a power
boat than a sailboat as the passage time tends to be longer for the
sailboat.

Pick your passages, don't have a schedule and enjoy the cruising without the
stress of which card to play...sea anchor or drogue.

BTW, the sailboat was lost do to a large hole in the side from the mast and
there was no loss of life as I'm still here ;-)

Dave & Nancy
Swan Song
Roughwater
Tortola, BVI