Please let me response to George Buehler's comments without shouting (all caps) or being arguementive: George B comments that the wood version could be built by "even a semi handy guy". Bob Austin replies: Unfortunately there are a lot of project boats which are never finished or end up being very poorly built and worth little because the builder does not take the time to develope proper skills. I have built boats in yards where poorly prepared "carpenters" attempted to build boats. It does not take much time to become a reasonably skilled wood worker--but the skill level of the builder is the difference between a piece of junk and a very good boat. George B asks "why a 8 kw genset"? and with caps says "none" are needed, that a $900 2 KW Honda would be plenty; that many 5th wheelers use these. Bob Austin replies: George B has spent most of his time in Northern climes. I would want air conditioning if I was in one of his designs in tropical ports (I have spent a number of years in tropical areas in sail boats, so I know what proper ventillation will do. I also am very familiar with all 12 volt system boats.). Here we are comparing a million dollar boat vs a several hundred thousand dollar boat which may have comperable systems. In todays world, it is nice to be able to make pure water, heat water, run refigeration, wash clothes and charge batteries all at once, with a short run of a generator running off diesel. Some of these can be done with 12 volt systems, but not all. An 8 Kw will do all of this effeciently. I own a Honda Eu 2000i--it is not a 2 kw generator--the constant output is 1600 watts. It only puts out 8 amps at 12 volts. It will run small appliances but is limited. The 1600 watt Honda will reliably run an air conditioner only up to 9,000 BTU. You are correct it is commonly used on boats up to 30 feet. The Honda requires a significant amount of gasoline. (I am not sure why you mention 5th wheelers, but most use at least 4 to 5 KW, because they find air conditioning necessary in their travels) George B questions epoxy/glassing the sides of the boat and deck. Bob Austin responds: I owned one of those 27 foot plywood Chris Crafts in 1960-61, as a result of this I have owned only fiberglass boats since 1962. The reason for epoxy/glass sheathing is protection of the plywood from abrasion, marine organisms, and ease of maintance. Not essential, but the boat will last longer and be stronger if epoxy glassed. Also the resale value will be increased. George B says that you cant get a "pretty decent plywood one in the water for 1/4 or so of what "this guy's aluminum guess speculated"" Bob Austin says, He is surprised that George B cannot give a figure for the hull construction in aluminum. If he can build a plywood "Idlewild" for $50,000, then my estimates were very close. (I did look up the actual cost of the materials in both wood and marine grade aluminum). I absolutely agree that the final cost is extremely variable, depending on what systems and degree of finish are acomplished. The point I was making is that for far less than a production boat, a home builder with skills can build and outfit a boat capable of circumnavigation. This is also sent directly to George Buehler--Charlie, who you dated a few years ago, her husband, Richard B and I had fun talking about your designs at our TGIF last night and she says "Hi!". Regards "this guy" Bob Austin Pensacola, FL.

Here's another slant on this topic. I sell production-built yachts. NOTHING pleases me more when it comes to the sales process than meeting someone who previously attempted (or even completed) a DIY (do-it-yourself) vessel. In 27 years of yacht sales I've only met 3 guys who found it BOTH a worthwhile venture AND one that they'd tackle a 2nd time. These DIY builders are among the "easiest" chaps to sell a production-built boat, to. Why? Because they know better than ANY of the would-be DIY builders as to what a truly monumental process it involves. Only they know how DISTRESSINGLY LOW the resale price of a DIY yacht can be. And few can better appreciate than the DIY yacht builder that old adage: "It's only after you've got your new barn up that you really know how to build one." In other words, you've got to build two barns in order to end up with one good barn...and that's the second one. But building even a medium-size boat (say 35 to 40 feet), is such a HUGE undertaking, that VERY FEW who accomplish the task once are wiling to try a second time. Even though that one-time builder now knows so MUCH more about how to do it right, and even though his second effort would undoubtedly result in a much superior product compared to his first attempt. Did you build your own house? Did you build your own car? Why not? With the multitude of kits available for either of those projects, I think one could anticipate fewer problems, an easier possibility of ending up with a fairly good-quality finished product, AND a more reassured resale value. Nonetheless, there seems to be much more "fantasy-romance" about building a complicated yacht then there is about building a house or car. As was pointed out in a related e-mail recently, the salary you "pay yourself" when building a boat comes out to scant dollars-per-hour. And that's reduced drastically even further when you factor in the huge depreciation that most DIY boats suffer when it comes to resale time. You might think I have a bias in writing the above. Not so. The number of people who build their own bluewater yacht is miniscule. But the number of tales-of-woe related to me by individuals who tried the DIY route, yet who never even completed their multi-year project, involves most of those individuals. Does that mean there is no reason to try the DIY route? Not at all. I can think of 3 or 4 reasons that, after years in the boating business, have seemed valid reasons to me to try DIY yacht building. (1) You're a born scrounger, but have no money. Those guys sometimes are able to create quite amazing vessels. Never great, mind you, and seldom even markedly good. But, when you discover how they've spent shockingly little money, my hat's off to 'em. But I mean you have to be an Olympic-class scrounger to affect this success. Each of you would-be DIYers already know whether you're in that select category or not. (And hardly anyone is!) (2) You want/need a vessel that is so out-of-the-mainstream, that there is perhaps NO production-built yacht that will suit your special needs. This could include a wide variety of "exceptional design" needs: i.e., the guy who wants a boat that will cruise at 10 MPG (so maybe an extreme trimaran design with small 4-cycle outboard motors), or the guy who wants exceptional speed with a high MPG rating (so perhaps a pencil-thin beam-to-length ratio), or the guy who needs decks and ramps for wheelchair usage, or a guy who has a "breakthrough" design idea (a yacht with a built-in hitch and retractable wheels, for instant highway-to-sea usage -- whatever). The point being, it's WAY easier to modify a production-built boat -- unless you have some extreme design need -- than it is to build a yacht from the keel(s) up. (3) The guys who LOVE the DIY concept, while having surprisingly little passion for the actual use of the vessel. There aren't many of these, either, but I've met a half-dozen or so. These are the chaps whose passion is the building, NOT the cruising of such craft. I'm always amazed to see such guys spend 4, 6, even 10 years creating their DIY yachts. What's more, this type of builder generally ends up with a commendably good yacht. That's because he has such a passion for the building process itself. The surprising thing is, though, that within months of launching the long-term project -- sometimes literally within weeks of launching it -- they've "re-jazzed" themselves into undertaking another DIY yacht-building project AGAIN. (And I don't think this is the type person we're speaking of in this subject thread for, as noted, they have an odd indifference to actually using the boat for any extended period.) (4) But the most common DIY builder (again, in my experience), is the guy who thinks that building a yacht on his own will be a major money saver. The one factor they seldom seem to consider is what their own time/labor is worth. (I'm not sure what the actual ratio is, but I'd estimate that the guy with a good-paying job, who puts in another 20 hours of week at his profession, will benefit more than if he spent 60 hours per week building his own boat. You're a proven pro at the one activity, you're a RANK amateur at the other. Shoot, the ratio might even be more like 20/80.) That's why when I'm approached by a would-be DIY (frankly, there are quite of few of these not-yet-committed wannabee DIY-ers who come to every boat show "just to get ideas for the boat I'm planning on building"), I'm always as helpful and forthright as possible. Why? This guy already has passion about owning a boat. And, for the reasons alluded to above, that means he's a strong future candidate to be coming back to me in another 1-to-5 years (if not 1 to 5 months) and buying one of my professionally manufactured boats. But if not, if instead he's one of those hardy few who prevails with his DIY plans, more power to him......'cuz sooner or later he's going to contact me to sell his DIY "beauty." And I'll be available to assist him with that sales transaction, too. Rod Gibbons Bob Austin wrote: >Please let me response to George Buehler's comments without shouting (all >caps) or being arguementive: George B comments that the wood version could >be built by "even a semi handy guy". Bob Austin replies: Unfortunately >there are a lot of project boats which are never finished or end up being >very poorly built and worth little because the builder does not take the >time to develope proper skills. I have built boats in yards where poorly >prepared "carpenters" attempted to build boats. It does not take much time >to become a reasonably skilled wood worker--but the skill level of the >builder is the difference between a piece of junk and a very good boat. > >George B asks "why a 8 kw genset"? and with caps says "none" are needed, >that a $900 2 KW Honda would be plenty; that many 5th wheelers use these. >Bob Austin replies: George B has spent most of his time in Northern climes. >I would want air conditioning if I was in one of his designs in tropical >ports (I have spent a number of years in tropical areas in sail boats, so I >know what proper ventillation will do. I also am very familiar with all 12 >volt system boats.). Here we are comparing a million dollar boat vs a >several hundred thousand dollar boat which may have comperable systems. In >todays world, it is nice to be able to make pure water, heat water, run >refigeration, wash clothes and charge batteries all at once, with a short >run of a generator running off diesel. >Some of these can be done with 12 volt systems, but not all. An 8 Kw will do >all of this effeciently. I own a Honda Eu 2000i--it is not a 2 kw >generator--the constant output is 1600 watts. It only puts out 8 amps at 12 >volts. It will run small appliances but is limited. The 1600 watt Honda >will reliably run an air conditioner only up to 9,000 BTU. You are correct >it is commonly used on boats up to 30 feet. The Honda requires a >significant amount of gasoline. (I am not sure why you mention 5th wheelers, >but most use at least 4 to 5 KW, because they find air conditioning >necessary in their travels) > >George B questions epoxy/glassing the sides of the boat and deck. Bob >Austin responds: I owned one of those 27 foot plywood Chris Crafts in >1960-61, as a result of this I have owned only fiberglass boats since 1962. >The reason for epoxy/glass sheathing is protection of the plywood from >abrasion, marine organisms, and ease of maintance. Not essential, but the >boat will last longer and be stronger if epoxy glassed. Also the resale >value will be increased. > >George B says that you cant get a "pretty decent plywood one in the water >for 1/4 or so of what "this guy's aluminum guess speculated"" Bob Austin >says, He is surprised that George B cannot give a figure for the hull >construction in aluminum. If he can build a plywood "Idlewild" for $50,000, >then my estimates were very close. (I did look up the actual cost of the >materials in both wood and marine grade aluminum). I absolutely agree that >the final cost is extremely variable, depending on what systems and degree >of finish are acomplished. > >The point I was making is that for far less than a production boat, a home >builder with skills can build and outfit a boat capable of circumnavigation. > >This is also sent directly to George Buehler--Charlie, who you dated a few >years ago, her husband, Richard B and I had fun talking about your designs >at our TGIF last night and she says "Hi!". > >Regards >"this guy" >Bob Austin >Pensacola, FL. > > >_______________________________________________ >Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List > > >

Charlie and I were/are (?) friends but I never had the honor of dating her. I stand by what I said. If your are on a budget, a very servicable and seaworthy boat can be built much MUCH (caps on purpose) less expensivly than what the marine press bothers to mention and what most readers of this and other "chats" know anything about, with to many of them to closed minded even to consider the concept I briefly mentioned. If you disagree fine. Do it how you like. In the cosmic sense it makes no difference at all nor whether or not you do it at all. But I hate seeing people never doing something they want because they think they are limited by costs. IDLEWILD can be built inexpensivly and cruised. It can be built expensivly and cruised. Each owner will be happy I'm sure. And I have seen many people with very little skills but some balls, start a boat, learn as they go, and build a decent boat. And some of them then go cruising if that's what they wanted. Meanwhile, their critics sit back and sneer. And never do it. We only live once. How you live and what you accomplish is up to you. If you aren't afraid. Best: George > Please let me response to George Buehler's comments without shouting (all > caps) or being arguementive: George B comments that the wood version > could > be built by "even a semi handy guy". Bob Austin replies: Unfortunately > there are a lot of project boats which are never finished or end up being > very poorly built and worth little because the builder does not take the > time to develope proper skills. I have built boats in yards where poorly > prepared "carpenters" attempted to build boats. It does not take much > time to become a reasonably skilled wood worker--but the skill level of the builder is the difference between a piece of junk and a very good boat. > > George B asks "why a 8 kw genset"? and with caps says "none" are needed, > that a $900 2 KW Honda would be plenty; that many 5th wheelers use these. > Bob Austin replies: George B has spent most of his time in Northern > climes. > I would want air conditioning if I was in one of his designs in tropical > ports (I have spent a number of years in tropical areas in sail boats, so > I > know what proper ventillation will do. I also am very familiar with all > 12 > volt system boats.). Here we are comparing a million dollar boat vs a > several hundred thousand dollar boat which may have comperable systems. > In > todays world, it is nice to be able to make pure water, heat water, run > refigeration, wash clothes and charge batteries all at once, with a short > run of a generator running off diesel. > Some of these can be done with 12 volt systems, but not all. An 8 Kw will > do > all of this effeciently. I own a Honda Eu 2000i--it is not a 2 kw > generator--the constant output is 1600 watts. It only puts out 8 amps at > 12 > volts. It will run small appliances but is limited. The 1600 watt Honda > will reliably run an air conditioner only up to 9,000 BTU. You are correct > it is commonly used on boats up to 30 feet. The Honda requires a > significant amount of gasoline. (I am not sure why you mention 5th > wheelers, > but most use at least 4 to 5 KW, because they find air conditioning > necessary in their travels) > > George B questions epoxy/glassing the sides of the boat and deck. Bob > Austin responds: I owned one of those 27 foot plywood Chris Crafts in > 1960-61, as a result of this I have owned only fiberglass boats since > 1962. > The reason for epoxy/glass sheathing is protection of the plywood from > abrasion, marine organisms, and ease of maintance. Not essential, but the > boat will last longer and be stronger if epoxy glassed. Also the resale > value will be increased. > > George B says that you cant get a "pretty decent plywood one in the water > for 1/4 or so of what "this guy's aluminum guess speculated"" Bob Austin > says, He is surprised that George B cannot give a figure for the hull > construction in aluminum. If he can build a plywood "Idlewild" for > $50,000, > then my estimates were very close. (I did look up the actual cost of the > materials in both wood and marine grade aluminum). I absolutely agree > that > the final cost is extremely variable, depending on what systems and degree > of finish are acomplished. > > The point I was making is that for far less than a production boat, a home > builder with skills can build and outfit a boat capable of > circumnavigation. > > This is also sent directly to George Buehler--Charlie, who you dated a few > years ago, her husband, Richard B and I had fun talking about your designs > at our TGIF last night and she says "Hi!". > > Regards > "this guy" > Bob Austin > Pensacola, FL. > >