Loran C sounds
Hi all;
Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 years, it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about 125 miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725.
As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched my 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun experiment. I guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains.
Regards; Rich
Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to listen.
But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN)
Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until
Sept/Oct when even that will go away.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz rputz@bnin.net wrote:
Hi all;
Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 years,
it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the
syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast
Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about 125
miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725.
As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched my
2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and
start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency
reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun experiment. I
guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains.
Regards; Rich
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and follow the instructions there.
I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping
LORAN operating?
-John
===============
Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to listen.
But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN)
Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until
Sept/Oct when even that will go away.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz rputz@bnin.net
wrote:
Hi all;
Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25
years,
it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the
syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast
Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about
125
miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725.
As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched
my
2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and
start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency
reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun
experiment. I
guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains.
Regards; Rich
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping
LORAN operating?
-John
===============
Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to
listen.
But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN)
Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until
Sept/Oct when even that will go away.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz rputz@bnin.net
wrote:
Hi all;
Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25
years,
it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the
syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast
Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about
125
miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725.
As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched
my
2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and
start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency
reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun
experiment. I
guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains.
Regards; Rich
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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Actually if I had a spare $36M or less I might buy the station on Nantucket.
;-)
Change it from LORAN to Master freq reference...
Though I am thinking several CS standards would be cheaper. Certainly draws
less power
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping
LORAN operating?
-John
===============
Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to
listen.
But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN)
Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter
until
Sept/Oct when even that will go away.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz rputz@bnin.net
wrote:
Hi all;
Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25
years,
it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the
syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast
Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about
125
miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725.
As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched
my
2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and
start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main
frequency
reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun
experiment. I
guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains.
Regards; Rich
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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Two things:
- The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
peak activity.
- Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions based
on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The principle
is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs less
per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
Impossible
People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in our
skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to female
fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to deal
with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over. Don't
try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
threatening.
Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an ancient
lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays dominance
games? Almost any politician you care to name.
So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the first
time.
Darn, the soap box broke.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: paul swed
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Two things:
- The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
peak activity.
- Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions
based
on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The
principle
is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs
less
per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
Impossible
People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
our
skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to
female
fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to
deal
with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over.
Don't
try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
threatening.
Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an
ancient
lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays
dominance
games? Almost any politician you care to name.
So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the
first
time.
Darn, the soap box broke.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: paul swed
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Steve,
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
GPS will (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war.
Buy a Glonass receiver. (In a few years buy a Galileo/Gagan/GPS/Glonass
recevier...)
The US has promised not to turn SA back on. I also do not think the
(maritime) DGPS stations have closed down in costal areas. They will
mitigate SA and still provide some integrity.
--
Björn
In message 62026.87.227.52.225.1265975191.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se, bg
@lysator.liu.se writes:
GPS will (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war.
You mean just like "Windows Vista has to be a success" ?
It's always important to distinguish between hard facts and abstract
objectives.
Fact: GPS is no less vulnerable because US is at war.
Abstract Objective: It would screw them badly if it breaks.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi
I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup.
Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will always make a low use system like Loran expensive.
The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return ....
The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch.
Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav system.
Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes.
We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues ....
Bob
On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote:
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Two things:
- The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
peak activity.
- Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions
based
on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The
principle
is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs
less
per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
Impossible
People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
our
skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to
female
fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to
deal
with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over.
Don't
try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
threatening.
Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an
ancient
lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays
dominance
games? Almost any politician you care to name.
So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the
first
time.
Darn, the soap box broke.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: paul swed
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I agree with many of these comments.
I guess LORAN C for timing will never die for me.
Now that I have the LORAN C simulator and it keeps the timing receivers
happy.
Granted the main reference is "me" but I have to say the HP5065 seems more
usable then wwvb. And very inexpensive compared to the LORAN C system. ;-)
I am using the 59300 chain (Canadian) for now. But I am ready to shift in
Sept when they shut down.
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Bob Camp lists@cq.nu wrote:
Hi
I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a
while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died
two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They
don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen
to is not a backup.
Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped
navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade
to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place
after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran
drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will
always make a low use system like Loran expensive.
The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball.
Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've
handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return ....
The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have
three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for
them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA,
lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch.
Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have
used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav
system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav
system.
Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they
turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of
timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a
backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and
failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and
again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with
that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that
decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or
months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would
take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes.
We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a
look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary
as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues ....
Bob
On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote:
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Two things:
- The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
peak activity.
- Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions
based
on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The
principle
is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs
less
per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
Impossible
People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
our
skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to
female
fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to
deal
with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over.
Don't
try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
threatening.
Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an
ancient
lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays
dominance
games? Almost any politician you care to name.
So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the
first
time.
Darn, the soap box broke.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: paul swed
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
before Oct.
Its all about $$$$$$
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
Actually pretty much what would happen if the same occurred now that
Loran C is turned off.
Tell me, how well does your GPS receiver work with Loran C? Do you
have a mapping Loran C receiver to take your GPS's place should it
be disabled? No one else does either.
-Chuck Harris
Sykes, Stephan wrote:
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
I still have a LORAN-C based navigation receiver in my plane. It is part of
a Northstar M2 system which uses Loran-C and GPS in a dual sensor mode.
Jeppesen stopped supporting the database for Northstar about a year ago and
now Loran-C is gone (haven't been flying since the shutdown to see if I can
pick up any Canadian Chains here on the Gulf Coast) so I am going to have to
upgrade to a Garmin or similar GPS system. Big $$$'s and a PITA but at
least I got maximum return on the original investment and waited until
maturation of the moving map technology.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:57 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi
I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while
back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two
weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They
don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen
to is not a backup.
Greetings,
As a former user of Loran for aircraft navigation, I can safely say that
there is no reason to preserve the system.
The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and of
significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii had no
coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night. Coverage was
even less during daylight hours.
Cycle slipping was always an issue; one needed to have a dead-reckoning
position available to make sure the Loran-derived position was accurate.
Errors of hundreds of miles (that pop back to zero without warning) were
seen on the TI 9000 unit, a $1500 box, that displayed only time
differences. Calculation of the flight log was a separate time consuming
effort.
Coverage in the Southern Hemisphere was not available. My A-10 aircraft
bubble-sextant and Tamaya NC-2 sight-reduction calculator served me well
in that half of the world.
Now I can have a position update once per second, accurate to a few
meters, anywhere in the world, with no antenna issues, in a hand-held
GPS receiver requiring no power from the aircraft, that automatically
updates the time to each fix along the route, for under $100.
Good-bye to Loran C and Loran A, too, which had even worse problems with
skywave contamination of the groundwave signal. Plotting a position on
paper charts overprinted with hyperbolic lines wasn't particularly
accurate anyway, especially along the baseline of a chain.
Regards,
Peter
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup.
Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will always make a low use system like Loran expensive.
The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return ....
The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch.
Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav system.
Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes.
We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues ....
Bob
Well from what I have seen on posts I don't agree on LORAN C dying for Nav.
In particular there is a website that pilots use were they have been
bitching about the shut down. Will believe boaters are out there also.
But I think the real answer is that commercial pilots and Navigation
abandoned it a while ago.
They matter.
So think about whats been going on and you may really appreciate what we
had.
LORAN C for time-nuts was the only tax dollar we ever got back from the
government.
So at $36M/year and 100 time-nuts thats $36,000 a year to each of us.
Finally a reason to have been very happy about taxes and LORAN C!!!! And
by-god tax free no less.
Or should I have declared that???
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:44 AM, J. L. Trantham jltran@att.net wrote:
I still have a LORAN-C based navigation receiver in my plane. It is part
of
a Northstar M2 system which uses Loran-C and GPS in a dual sensor mode.
Jeppesen stopped supporting the database for Northstar about a year ago and
now Loran-C is gone (haven't been flying since the shutdown to see if I can
pick up any Canadian Chains here on the Gulf Coast) so I am going to have
to
upgrade to a Garmin or similar GPS system. Big $$$'s and a PITA but at
least I got maximum return on the original investment and waited until
maturation of the moving map technology.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:57 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi
I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a
while
back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two
weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They
don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen
to is not a backup.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
True.
However, GPS is now so ubiquitous that if they put SA back on, Congress
would likely reverse the decision because of the outcry. GPS is a victim
of its own success.
FWIW,
-Jhn
===============
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote:
The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and
of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii
had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night.
Coverage was even less during daylight hours.
Not so;
Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and
have been prototyped.
eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS,
and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either.
The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having
nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system.
It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization.
Cheers,
--msa
Majdi is correct. The budget report I saw showed that it was less to
upgrade than to decommission. It still doesn't make sense to rely on
only one system with the assumption that it won't break. I think in the
future that shutting down these site will be deemed a bad idea.
Steve KD2OM
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 13:01
To: peter@ni6e.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote:
The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and
of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii
had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night.
Coverage was even less during daylight hours.
Not so;
Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and
have been prototyped.
eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS,
and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either.
The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having
nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system.
It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization.
Cheers,
--msa
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
It does if you are a presidential suck up.
ie DHS head
Whats being saved is truly nothing.
But don't want to get on that soap box poor form.
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Sykes, Stephan ssykes@harris.com wrote:
Majdi is correct. The budget report I saw showed that it was less to
upgrade than to decommission. It still doesn't make sense to rely on
only one system with the assumption that it won't break. I think in the
future that shutting down these site will be deemed a bad idea.
Steve KD2OM
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 13:01
To: peter@ni6e.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote:
The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and
of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii
had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night.
Coverage was even less during daylight hours.
Not so;
Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and
have been prototyped.
eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS,
and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either.
The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having
nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system.
It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization.
Cheers,
--msa
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GPS was and would still be useable with SA back on. And, the Coast Guard
still supports DGPS. I am no expert, but my GPS with SA on always beat my
use of a sextant.
John WA4WDL
From: bg@lysator.liu.se
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:46 AM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi Steve,
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
Steve KD2OM
GPS will (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war.
Buy a Glonass receiver. (In a few years buy a Galileo/Gagan/GPS/Glonass
recevier...)
The US has promised not to turn SA back on. I also do not think the
(maritime) DGPS stations have closed down in costal areas. They will
mitigate SA and still provide some integrity.
--
Björn
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A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on
the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when
Spooky showed up.
Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing
all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service.
Thanks for your service, Peter.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam
pico.2008@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My A-10 aircraft
-- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com
This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry
Proc):
http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l
oran.html
Bill Hawkins
Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not
familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent
hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was
the first of April already (April Fool's Day).
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry
Proc):
http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l
oran.html
Bill Hawkins
Confirmed to be not only a hoax, but a cruel hoax. Jerry asked
the Coast guard and got this answer:
GREETINGS:
Thank you for your report regarding the absence of LORAN signal
availability.
In accordance with the DHS Appropriations Act, the U.S. Coast Guard
has terminated the transmission of all U.S. LORAN-C signals effective
2000Z 08 Feb 2010. At this time, the U.S. LORAN-C signal will be
unusable and permanently discontinued.
This termination does not affect U.S. participation in the Russian
American or Canadian LORAN-C chains. U.S. participation in these
chains will continue in accordance with international agreements.
The Canadian Coast Guard has also issued a statement, which is
shown on their website.
You may view the estimated remaining LORAN-C signal coverage areas
of these international chains at
<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/loran/sigspec/excerptofappenxb.pdf).
The Coast Guard strongly urges mariners currently using LORAN-C for
navigation to shift to a GPS navigation system and become familiar
with its operation as soon as possible.
The decision to cease transmission of the LORAN-C signal reflects
the president's pledge to eliminate unnecessary federal programs.
If you have any further questions regarding LORAN please contact the
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Public Affairs Office at 202-282-8010.
Sincerely,
USCG Navigation Center
Navigation Information Service
NAVCEN MS 7310
7323 Telegraph Road
Alexandria, VA 20598 - 7310
Tel: 703-313-5900
www.navcen.uscg.gov
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:25 PM
Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not
familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent
hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was
the first of April already (April Fool's Day).
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry
Proc):
http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l
oran.html
Bill Hawkins
I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant,
originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the
KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble
sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A
"Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting coincidence with
nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat Warthog would have been
a trick! I confess to having drooled over Loran C while serving as a
nav in SAC. When I eventually installed Loran C in my personal Mooney
aircraft, I was quite pleased with its performance, but there's no
question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many ways for global
navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw
operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve
navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even
in the '70s.
Matt Osborn wrote:
A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on
the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when
Spooky showed up.
Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing
all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service.
Thanks for your service, Peter.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam
pico.2008@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My A-10 aircraft
-- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com
Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was
trialed, but never installed.
We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s -
early 60s. A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and
was received
by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd
microseconds and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed
in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at
VHF and the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing
pulse spacing.
With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost?
I do not know how shipping located themselves.
cheers, Neville Michie
On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote:
I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant,
originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in
the KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted
bubble sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild
Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting
coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat
Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled over
Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed
Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with
its performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed
Loran in many ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the
only Loran receiver I saw operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in
the KC-135Q, to improve navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71.
It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s.
Matt Osborn wrote:
A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on
the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when
Spooky showed up.
Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing
all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service.
Thanks for your service, Peter.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam
pico.2008@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My A-10 aircraft
-- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
In message C33E8481-7F7B-4E45-AC70-9FB896AB6C88@gmail.com, Neville Michie wri
tes:
We had a system of secondary radar called DME [...]
DME is still going strong, and is the main GPS-Backup over Europe
for air-traffic.
I do not know how shipping located themselves.
Possibly Omega...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi,Yes DME is still going strong. Modern interrogators time division multiplex between 3 or more ground stations, giving enough data for the navigation computer to get a position fix. It's the one analogue system that looks like it's got a future. It's compatible with the distance part of the military TACAN (TACtical Air Navigation) system. The original system design in the '50's was very forward thinking and allowed for expansion. They even modulate the pulses (L band around 1000MHz) to piggy-back a datalink on the TACAN signal.Did some work once pulling 0.01nm resolution signals out of a DME for ILS calibration.
Robert G8RPI.
--- On Sun, 14/2/10, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
From: Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Sunday, 14 February, 2010, 8:34
In message C33E8481-7F7B-4E45-AC70-9FB896AB6C88@gmail.com, Neville Michie wri
tes:
We had a system of secondary radar called DME [...]
DME is still going strong, and is the main GPS-Backup over Europe
for air-traffic.
I do not know how shipping located themselves.
Possibly Omega...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Omega was pretty much the "way to go" for large ship (think super tankers) navigation until the late 1980's. At least in the US, the big commercial airlines switched from Omega to GPS in the 1990's. Anybody that was using it had to do something before it was shut down in 1997. Loran-C is not the first big time system they have shut down in the face of competition from GPS.
Bob
On Feb 14, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Neville Michie wrote:
Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was trialed, but never installed.
We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s - early 60s. A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and was received
by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd microseconds and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed
in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at VHF and the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing pulse spacing.
With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost?
I do not know how shipping located themselves.
cheers, Neville Michie
On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote:
I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s.
Matt Osborn wrote:
A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on
the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when
Spooky showed up.
Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing
all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service.
Thanks for your service, Peter.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam
pico.2008@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My A-10 aircraft
-- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi,A company I worked for in the mid 90's updated their Tracor VLF Omega navigation systems (about 20) to include an embedded GPS. This was not cheap. About a year later they shut down Omega. As the GPS was a "secondary" sensor they had to replace the whole system, DOH!
Robert G8RPI.
--- On Sun, 14/2/10, Bob Camp lists@cq.nu wrote:
From: Bob Camp lists@cq.nu
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Sunday, 14 February, 2010, 13:24
Hi
Omega was pretty much the "way to go" for large ship (think super tankers) navigation until the late 1980's. At least in the US, the big commercial airlines switched from Omega to GPS in the 1990's. Anybody that was using it had to do something before it was shut down in 1997. Loran-C is not the first big time system they have shut down in the face of competition from GPS.
Bob
On Feb 14, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Neville Michie wrote:
Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was trialed, but never installed.
We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s - early 60s. A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and was received
by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd microseconds and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed
in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at VHF and the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing pulse spacing.
With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost?
I do not know how shipping located themselves.
cheers, Neville Michie
On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote:
I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s.
Matt Osborn wrote:
A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on
the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when
Spooky showed up.
Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing
all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service.
Thanks for your service, Peter.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam
pico.2008@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My A-10 aircraft
-- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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