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Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

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FE-.5680A trimming resolution

AK
Attila Kinali
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 8:47 PM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100
Javier Herrero jherrero@hvsistemas.es wrote:

El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribió:

My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what i
want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 support?

You can have a look on these
http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabId=2597&familyId=1756
Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96

This was exactly the device i intended to use.
But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers
to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the
timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow
every 800us (at 80MHz clock).

I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices:

LPC18xx (NXP):
Look nice, but still in development or early production.
I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP.
This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still
being able to solder one by hand.

K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new.
Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit
on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy
them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive.

STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those.
(website fails w/o error message)

I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are:

  • wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year)
  • Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter functions.

Any hints appreciated

		Attila Kinali

--
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100 Javier Herrero <jherrero@hvsistemas.es> wrote: > El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribió: > > My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what i > > want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 support? > You can have a look on these > http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabId=2597&familyId=1756 > Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96 This was exactly the device i intended to use. But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow every 800us (at 80MHz clock). I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices: LPC18xx (NXP): Look nice, but still in development or early production. I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP. This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still being able to solder one by hand. K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new. Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive. STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those. (website fails w/o error message) I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are: * wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year) * Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter functions. Any hints appreciated Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago?
DL
Don Latham
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:05 PM

If you are willing to use external counters:

Dallas DS2423 Dual 32-bit Counter
Or, if you have an unlimited budget:
http://www.cwcelectronicsystems.com/dual32ct_modulario.html
the word "defense" is prominent here :-).
Or counter products from: http://www.lsicsi.com/
I use encoder interfaces from the last company and recommend them!
Don

Attila Kinali

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100
Javier Herrero jherrero@hvsistemas.es wrote:

El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribió:

My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what

i

want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588

support?
You can have a look on these
http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabId=2597&familyId=1756
Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96

This was exactly the device i intended to use.
But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers
to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the
timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow
every 800us (at 80MHz clock).

I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices:

LPC18xx (NXP):
Look nice, but still in development or early production.
I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP.
This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still
being able to solder one by hand.

K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new.
Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit
on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy
them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive.

STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those.
(website fails w/o error message)

I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are:

  • wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year)
  • Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter
    functions.

Any hints appreciated

		Attila Kinali

--
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com

If you are willing to use external counters: Dallas DS2423 Dual 32-bit Counter Or, if you have an unlimited budget: http://www.cwcelectronicsystems.com/dual32ct_modulario.html the word "defense" is prominent here :-). Or counter products from: http://www.lsicsi.com/ I use encoder interfaces from the last company and recommend them! Don Attila Kinali > On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100 > Javier Herrero <jherrero@hvsistemas.es> wrote: > >> El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribió: >> > My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what >> i >> > want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 >> support? >> You can have a look on these >> http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabId=2597&familyId=1756 >> Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96 > > This was exactly the device i intended to use. > But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers > to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the > timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow > every 800us (at 80MHz clock). > > I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices: > > LPC18xx (NXP): > Look nice, but still in development or early production. > I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP. > This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still > being able to solder one by hand. > > K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new. > Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit > on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy > them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive. > > STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those. > (website fails w/o error message) > > > I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are: > * wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year) > * Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter > functions. > > Any hints appreciated > > Attila Kinali > > -- > Why does it take years to find the answers to > the questions one should have asked long ago? > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind." R. Bacon "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:13 PM

want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588

An suitable motherboard and an intel 82599 based ethernet card ?

The latter will set you back approx $700, but $1000 should get you far
in total.

The 82599 has some very interesting time-nuts features with respect
to the GPIO pins.  Unfortunately I have not been able to find out if
these pins are accessible on the Intel ethernet cards.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

In message <deac00aacc21732c4705e34cd4097d7a.squirrel@www.webmail.montana.com>, "Don Latham" writes: >>> > want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 An suitable motherboard and an intel 82599 based ethernet card ? The latter will set you back approx $700, but $1000 should get you far in total. The 82599 has some very interesting time-nuts features with respect to the GPIO pins. Unfortunately I have not been able to find out if these pins are accessible on the Intel ethernet cards. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
RK
Rob Kimberley
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:14 PM

If anyone is interested, I have just got hold of a PDF of the Technical Manual TM 5680-0211 for 5680A series Rubidiums.
Please contact me off list for a copy (1M, so too large to post on time-nuts@febo.com)

Rob Kimberley

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: 31 January 2012 20:47
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-.5680A trimming resolution

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100
Javier Herrero jherrero@hvsistemas.es wrote:

El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribi :

My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what
i want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 support?

You can have a look on these
http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabI
d=2597&familyId=1756 Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96

This was exactly the device i intended to use.
But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow every 800us (at 80MHz clock).

I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices:

LPC18xx (NXP):
Look nice, but still in development or early production.
I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP.
This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still being able to solder one by hand.

K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new.
Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive.

STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those.
(website fails w/o error message)

I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are:

  • wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year)
  • Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter functions.

Any hints appreciated

		Attila Kinali

--
Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago?

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

If anyone is interested, I have just got hold of a PDF of the Technical Manual TM 5680-0211 for 5680A series Rubidiums. Please contact me off list for a copy (1M, so too large to post on time-nuts@febo.com) Rob Kimberley -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Attila Kinali Sent: 31 January 2012 20:47 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-.5680A trimming resolution On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:06:04 +0100 Javier Herrero <jherrero@hvsistemas.es> wrote: > El 31/01/2012 20:43, Attila Kinali escribi : > > My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not do what > > i want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers and IEEE 1588 support? > You can have a look on these > http://www.ti.com/mcu/docs/mculuminaryfamilynode.tsp?sectionId=95&tabI > d=2597&familyId=1756 Some of them have IEEE-1588, like the LM3S9B96 This was exactly the device i intended to use. But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow every 800us (at 80MHz clock). I browsed trough the internets and could find the following devices: LPC18xx (NXP): Look nice, but still in development or early production. I especially like that they (will be) are available in a 200 pin QFP. This would enable to use all the functions of the chip while still being able to solder one by hand. K60 (Freescale): Hell of a confusing documentation. Also quite new. Have only 16bit timers. A big issue is that they have a crypto unit on chip, which makes them export restricted. Ie the only way to buy them is from a local distributor which makes them expensive. STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those. (website fails w/o error message) I havent found any other chips yet. Sofar the options i see are: * wait for the LPC18xx become available in quanities (can take a year) * Use a LM3S9B96 together with a small FPGA to implement the counter functions. Any hints appreciated Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
JH
Javier Herrero
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:19 PM

El 31/01/2012 21:47, Attila Kinali escribió:

This was exactly the device i intended to use.
But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers
to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the
timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow
every 800us (at 80MHz clock).

I see... for edge count and edge time, only individual timers and not
concatenates. I've had a look to the LM3S9D96, and it is more or less
the same (the exception is that it is marketed as 4 32-bit timers that
can be used as 8 16-bit timers :) ), and I suspect that all the family
will have similar behaviout. A pity... since for Ethernet it includes
the LAN and PHY on-chip.

Regards,

Javier

El 31/01/2012 21:47, Attila Kinali escribió: > > > This was exactly the device i intended to use. > But it doesnt really have 32bit timers. They cascade two 16bit timers > to get 32bit, but then all kind of restrictions apply which make the > timers unusable. And when using 16bit timers, i'll get an overflow > every 800us (at 80MHz clock). I see... for edge count and edge time, only individual timers and not concatenates. I've had a look to the LM3S9D96, and it is more or less the same (the exception is that it is marketed as 4 32-bit timers that can be used as 8 16-bit timers :) ), and I suspect that all the family will have similar behaviout. A pity... since for Ethernet it includes the LAN and PHY on-chip. Regards, Javier
C
cfo
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:19 PM

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:47:15 +0100, Attila Kinali wrote:

STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those.
(website fails w/o error message)

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:47:15 +0100, Attila Kinali wrote: > STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those. > (website fails w/o error message) I have no probs with the ST site (Discovery-F4) http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp You want these for the MCU http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/252140.jsp DataSheet http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ DATASHEET/DM00037051.pdf Errata http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ ERRATA_SHEET/DM00037591.pdf Reference Manual http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ REFERENCE_MANUAL/DM00031020.pdf CFO
AB
Azelio Boriani
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:35 PM

The Navsync FTS125 is an example where the GPS receiver engine (the CW25)
is driven by a 20MHz fixed OCXO. At the moment I don't know if the CW25 of
the FTS125 has a specific firmware for that but I suspect that it must be
so. In my opinion it is best to have a tunable OCXO (like the TBolt) to
have the best performance.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:19 PM, cfo xnews2@luna.kyed.com wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:47:15 +0100, Attila Kinali wrote:

STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those.
(website fails w/o error message)

I have no probs with the ST site (Discovery-F4)
http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp

You want these for the MCU
http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/252140.jsp

DataSheet
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/
DATASHEET/DM00037051.pdf

Errata
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/
ERRATA_SHEET/DM00037591.pdf

Reference Manual
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/
REFERENCE_MANUAL/DM00031020.pdf

CFO

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

The Navsync FTS125 is an example where the GPS receiver engine (the CW25) is driven by a 20MHz fixed OCXO. At the moment I don't know if the CW25 of the FTS125 has a specific firmware for that but I suspect that it must be so. In my opinion it is best to have a tunable OCXO (like the TBolt) to have the best performance. On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:19 PM, cfo <xnews2@luna.kyed.com> wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 21:47:15 +0100, Attila Kinali wrote: > > > STM32-F2/F4 (ST): ST doesn't want to give me the documentation to those. > > (website fails w/o error message) > > I have no probs with the ST site (Discovery-F4) > http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp > > > You want these for the MCU > http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/252140.jsp > > DataSheet > http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ > DATASHEET/DM00037051.pdf > > Errata > http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ > ERRATA_SHEET/DM00037591.pdf > > Reference Manual > http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ > REFERENCE_MANUAL/DM00031020.pdf > > > CFO > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
CA
Chris Albertson
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 11:17 PM

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:

Let's say, i'm building a GPSDO with a high quality OCXO.
Wouldnt it then make sense to lock the reference clock of the GPS
receiver also to that OCXO?

Yes, I see.  That is exactly what Trimble does in the Thunderbolt.
There is only one OCXO in the T-bolt that is used for both the output
10MHz and to run the receiver.  That system works well for them

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: > Let's say, i'm building a GPSDO with a high quality OCXO. > Wouldnt it then make sense to lock the reference clock of the GPS > receiver also to that OCXO? Yes, I see. That is exactly what Trimble does in the Thunderbolt. There is only one OCXO in the T-bolt that is used for both the output 10MHz and to run the receiver. That system works well for them Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California
CA
Chris Albertson
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 11:27 PM

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:

My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not
do what i want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers
and IEEE 1588 support?

Does the system need to be small?  If not Generic PC hardware can
work.  Buy an Intel "Atom" main board.  For under $85 you get a
soldered down CPU and all the normal PC stuff, PCI bus and all.  The
board I bought does not have a CPU fan and burns all of about 5 watts.
Or you can re-cycle and old notebook computer.  If you run Linux
then yes it supports  IEEE 1588.  There are real-time versions of
linux that give you easy access to low level hardware much like with a
uP.

If you were going to mass produce these you could cut costs but for a
one-off using a $100 PC is reasonable.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: > > My current progress is that the uC i wanted to use does not > do what i want. Can anyone recommend a uC with 32bit timers > and IEEE 1588 support? Does the system need to be small? If not Generic PC hardware can work. Buy an Intel "Atom" main board. For under $85 you get a soldered down CPU and all the normal PC stuff, PCI bus and all. The board I bought does not have a CPU fan and burns all of about 5 watts. Or you can re-cycle and old notebook computer. If you run Linux then yes it supports IEEE 1588. There are real-time versions of linux that give you easy access to low level hardware much like with a uP. If you were going to mass produce these you could cut costs but for a one-off using a $100 PC is reasonable. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California
KJ
ken johnson
Wed, Feb 1, 2012 12:16 AM

Rob, I would be happy to put it on one of my web pages so people could
download it.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Rob Kimberley
robkimberley@btinternet.comwrote:

If anyone is interested, I have just got hold of a PDF of the Technical
Manual TM 5680-0211 for 5680A series Rubidiums.
Please contact me off list for a copy (1M, so too large to post on
time-nuts@febo.com)

Rob, I would be happy to put it on one of my web pages so people could download it. On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Rob Kimberley <robkimberley@btinternet.com>wrote: > If anyone is interested, I have just got hold of a PDF of the Technical > Manual TM 5680-0211 for 5680A series Rubidiums. > Please contact me off list for a copy (1M, so too large to post on > time-nuts@febo.com) > > >
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