Re: [PCW] Alternative power sources
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:43:59 -0800
From: 2elnav@netbistro.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Alternative power sources (was: Buzzards Bay 34
pricing)
Message-ID: C34D0B2DE8984707954FA633DC3725AF@ARLD
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hello Arild,
It would certainly be impossible for a boat to not use battery power
altogether as low voltage DC is required for navigation equipment, engine
starting, and many other uses around the boat and I didn't state there were
no batteries at all I was simply referring to the propulsion system.
Ohms law proves that the higher the voltage the lower the power draw, so
using 24 volt equipment instead of 12 volt will require you to run a
generator for a shorter period of time to top up the batteries and this will
save fuel and put less carbon into the atmosphere. To take this one step
further; if you have 120 or 240 volts available from a generator then you
should use it for the anchor windlass and davit, etc. Items that use less
power such as the fridge/freezer, etc, can run through an inverter for quiet
night anchorages. This will require you to run a generator to top up the
house batteries the next day unless you intend to motor somewhere which will
do the same thing.
My reference to hybrids was to mean I would not recommend them as the power
source to drive DC propulsion motors because of their weight and cost. To
run two DC propulsion motors you would require at least 12 batteries in
series for each engine plus the house batteries and engine start batteries
and that adds up to a lot of batteries to charge, to secure and to push
their combined weight through the water.
I haven't ruled out hybrids altogether for power catamarans I just don't see
the need to carry 2 sets of 12 batteries to drive my 144 volt DC propulsion
motors when I can get the same power from generators that weigh less, eg,
OSSA Powerlite. I also haven't ruled out solar panels to charge the house
batteries while at anchor, but solar panels are presently expensive
inefficient devices that won't allow you to run your air-conditioning or
other high power consumption devices.
Simple cruising boats with very small power needs who don't want to exceed
10 knots can use small hybrid systems, but this is more like sail boat
cruising and most power boater cruisers prefer a higher level of comfort.
Using your engine drive batteries as house batteries! Believe me this is not
a good idea, never has been, even sailing boat cruisers know not to do this
and it would really surprise me if a company suggests that you do this using
their equipment.
Hydrogen fuel cells have been coming for a long time, but they need to be
proven in real time. I never rule out new technology, in fact I follow it
all very closely, but it takes years of refinement and proof of the long
term viability of the technology before it reaches a level where I could
recommend it to my clients. I would not set off cruising with a brand new
technology as my only source of power.
Cheers,
Graham
Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs
REPLY
But what about the systems that do not use huge battery banks? Every boat
that anchors out requires hotel services that requires either a genset
running 24/7 or some form of energy storage - typically batteries -for
silent overnight service.
Some hybrid systems do not require large battery systems only modest sizes
and several manufacturers have offered systems where propulsion and hotel
services utilize the same battery.
And lets not forget the latest italian based fuel cells. A acquaintance has
just installed one such fuel cell as a test for a UPS system.
The power storage technology is changing so fast we should not rule out
any given approach because next month or next year the whole picture has
changed.
Arild
Graham wrote on Nov 13
----- Original Message -----
Green technologies cover everything that makes a catamaran use less carbon
fuel and operate more efficiently. This includes diesel/electric
propulsion, pod propulsion, hydrofoils, CANbus electrical systems, improved
hull form and lighter construction methods and that includes resin infusion.
I have excluded hybrids because they use banks of batteries that are
heavy,
expensive and are more suited to sailing boats as they can re-charge them
by
using the dragging prop as a generator while sailing.
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:34:56 -0800
From: "Jim Meader" jim@rmtmail.com
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] buyer customizations
Message-ID: A5744FD3-5416-44BE-A3F7-91B0C2C365AF@rmtmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset="us-ascii"
I have to agree this is one of the best discussions To read.
Jim Meader
DRE # 00493029
RE/MAX Today
Sent from my iPhone
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:36:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark mark424x@yahoo.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 977041.30777.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In building construction, many of these issues are dealt with by the local
building codes, e.g. you can't have a hidden splice or even a junction box
that is not accessible, must follow color code standards....Contractors can
loose their license if they don't comply. Occasionally we hear about ABS or
CE certifications, do they cover any of these things or is it really only
about seaworthness of the hull design?
In many industries there a whole teams that focus on "design for" issues,
such design for manufacturability, design for maintenance, design for
quality, etc. It doesn't seem that there is the scale in this industry to
absorb those kinds of costs.
I was chatting the other day with a fellow that had a circumnavigation cut
short due to some mechanical and budget issues. He went on and on about
the poor quality of the marine maintenance services, even in the high priced
boat yards here in southern California and mentioned some of the issues that
Ed cited.
It certainly is a conundrum.
Mark
Mark Long
Marina del Rey, CA
From: "sealubber7@aol.com" sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 5:48:09 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Another issue that would be nice to think about for those of us that will
never have the ability to order that new custom build is the cost of
maintenance, repairs, and up grades. Have none of the people that build
boats
of any kind, but particularly production boats, ever gone back into one that
has been on the water for five or ten years? The lack of conduits of proper
size for running wiring, plumbing, and cables. Wire that is not tinned.
Connections and splices that are hidden somewhere. Changing color coding of
wires in a run, and sizes that only work when the vessel is new and
batteries
are fresh and connectors are shinny. Why does the plumbing have to be on top
of the electrics, so when it leaks you have a power failure? Why does the
refrigeration cooling hose always leak salt water onto the compressor so
that
when you find it, it is not a dollar hose clamp, but a $2K plus
refrigeration
system? Why can't companies maintain common mounting dimensions and methods
when they change colors or materials, etc. Do they ever think that you don't
always have to reinvent the wheel when changing out parts? Speciality hinges
and latches that fit a molded part, but won't be available next year. Access
to systems that are assembled between moldings during production, that
require
tearing the boat apart to repair or replace. Sometimes it is very difficult
to
explain to someone that is knowledgeable about most things, and to have them
imagine what it will cost for parts and labor (compared to most of the
things
you know about, excluding airplanes) and then multiply by five if we are
lucky, and eight if not. With all of the planning and design that goes into
building a boat, it sometimes seems that boat builders don't see the trees
for
the forest.
Ed Schwerin
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:42:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark mark424x@yahoo.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 666100.11729.qm@web31805.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm not sure what the issue is here, but a quick comment about the real
estate analogy. Here in California when you get your property tax bill
there are two numbers, the Land value and the value of the "Improvements".
The improvements, generally the building, is a depreciating asset and other
than regional differences in labor and materials costs would be similar in
many locales. The Land value is the one that varies widely based on supply
and demand. Here in coastal California the land can be 80-90% of the value,
in a rural district in the interior it would be 10-20% of the value. Since
a boat has no land, location has less of an effect. But the effect is non
zero due to the difficulty in relocating large boats long distances.
Mark
Mark Long
Marina del Rey, CA
From: gram rupert gramario@tin.it
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 11:03:06 AM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Graham,
Thank you for your "explanation. I am fairly well-versed in forms of
argumentative logic, fallacies, rhetoric, and honest and dishonest forms of
argumentation, (at least enough for my own interest and enjoyment), ergo, I
don't think I need to explain my comments further. You have made your
points; I have made mine. I am content with that.
Cheers,
rupert.
On 15 Nov 2009, at 17:40, Graham wrote:
Rupert, I didn't realize I had to explain a simple analogy to someone, so
obviously you didn't get the message or you're just argumentative.
For two similar things to be compared they must be compared in the same
socio-economic areas....apples with apples, oranges with oranges, get it.
Graham
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:39:43 -0500
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs gxk@earthlink.net
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PCW] Snip those quotes!
Message-ID: 40E36D1A-0726-43FD-8FD3-57B6D432EC6D@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
A reminder:
It is not necessary to quote and repeat every single preceding posting
in a discussion thread. Often, when there is a fair bit of back and
forth, no quoting is needed.
Quote only when it's necessary for continuity.
Never ever should the quoted material be longer than the new message.
--Listmaster
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:44:54 -0500
From: sealubber7@aol.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Message-ID: 8CC346D260D6220-5624-12702@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Graham, you are preaching to the choir here. I've done a lot of
maintenance,
repair, and upgrades on a lot of different boats and as you said run into
most, if not all, of the problems that most boats have. I would like to
think
with boat marketing as competitive as it has to be today that some companies
would look at the common sense issues that would make a major difference in
the cost of owning a boat, not just the original purchase price. Most of
these
issues would be a minor expense to incorporate into the design and
construction of a boat compared to repair in some exotic place (read
expensive). If you were at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show, you would think
that
every new boat would be perfect, and never need repair. But as unbelievable
as
all that money to buy all that glitz and glamour, they too will have
problems
eventually and the common sense construction will be evident, or not. And
maybe at that level, money doesn't really matter at all. Ego, doesn't seem
to
have a price. But in the real world, if a boat company builds it right and
makes it pretty and functional, it has to be a win-win situation. I think
most
boaters, like myself, feel somewhat insulted when you run into a system
problem that could just as easily been done right, but since it was covered
up
and hidden no one cared to do it right. Right doesn't have to cost more, or
at
least not that much more.
Thanks for your contribution to this list.
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham graham@trawlercatmarine.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 4:22 pm
Subject: [PCW] Buzzards Bay 34 pricing
Hi Ed,
You have really struck to the heart of what makes a quality boat, one that
will stand the test of time and not cost an arm or a leg to maintain. This
is in part, why ABYC was established. But not all production or custom boat
builders strictly adhere to their recommended practices, which is why the
problems you describe do happen and it sounds like you have experienced most
of them.
Production boat builders should be building exactly the same boat the same
way including electric cable looms, so unless these issues were not
addressed from the beginning then all their boats will be born with the same
generic problem. Manufacturing boats for a competitive market can lead to
the sorts of problems you describe as keeping the price down without
sacrificing quality can be a very fine line to walk.
On the other hand building a different custom boat every time, these
tradesmen are not working to the same repetitive discipline. Where things
are placed or run is somewhat of a judgment call made by an individual,
which is a very good reason to have an experienced project manager looking
after your best interest throughout the construction. Electricians like to
be the first to run their cables with the plumbers coming in second and
painters coming in last and dropping paint all over things. I have had to
have electricians move their cable trays up to allow the fuel and water
pipes to run underneath the electrics. I know it sounds like commonsense to
put electrics up and plumbing down but these tradesmen don't think, they act
and have probably never owned a boat so they are not aware of the serious
problems they can create.
Service accessibility and replacing parts is not something many R&D types
think enough about, they're more concerned about fitting "it" all in in the
confined space they have to work with. I had heated discussions with the
lead designer on the placement of engine room items on a production boat,
unfortunately I lost and he did it his way which will prove unfortunate for
owners when they have to crawl around a hot engine to reach a circuit
breaker and other equipment. Many boat builders have had boating experience
which is why they became involved in boat building, others came up as
tradesmen who started their own business and the academics, well, they know
all the theory. Academic designers that don't have boating experience don't
realize the difficulties they can create for an owner, don't get me wrong we
do need their engineering expertise.
Specialty hinges and latches like many other things on a boat are subject to
change by most manufacturers as they too are in competition for market share
and they have to keep changing and updating their product line. Carrying a
lot of obsolete stock for ten years to satisfy the occasional customer is
not financially viable and if they did carry it everyone would complain
about the high cost of the items, like they do with Volvo parts. In this
area the boater will have to be creative and find a different item to suit
even if it means fabricating a single item or updating all the hinges or
latches so they match.
Before you purchase a production boat you should crawl all over it and ask
the salesman to pull wall and overhead panels off if they're detachable, so
you can see what's behind the glitz. Most people are sold by the finish and
the stated performance and only take a glance at the things that could turn
their dream boat into a nightmare. If you can find someone who has owned
the same or a similar model from the same builder and they are willing to
talk to you about their experiences with their boat and it comes out
positive then you will be in a better position to make the decision as to
whether this is the right company and the right boat for you.
Cheers,
Graham
Captain Graham Pfister
President & Principle Designer
TrawlerCat Marine Designs
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:46:55 -0500
From: Georgs Kolesnikovs gxk@earthlink.net
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Cc: Tim Chrisp tchrisp@cedenco.co.nz
Subject: [PCW] Fin stabilizers on cats
Message-ID: 79EB2508-503B-4B73-8A14-9A7BA56A5000@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: "Tim Chrisp" tchrisp@cedenco.co.nz
Date: November 14, 2009 5:38:11 PM GMT-05:00
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: fin stabilisation
Dear Sirs,
I am not sure if your forum is still operating bit I am keen to hear if
anyone has experience with passive fins set between the hulls of a
displacement catamaran for slow or modest speed stabilisation.
Look forward to hearing from you
Tim Chrisp
New Zealand
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:37:05 -0900
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
To: PCW List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Cc: Tim Chrisp tchrisp@cedenco.co.nz
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fin stabilizers on cats
Message-ID: C72608E1.5E5E%deering@ak.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 11/15/09 4:46 PM, "Georgs Kolesnikovs" gxk@earthlink.net wrote:
I am not sure if your forum is still operating bit I am keen to hear if
anyone has experience with passive fins set between the hulls of a
displacement catamaran for slow or modest speed stabilisation.
I've explored it a bit. There's at least one boat around here featuring a
hydrofoil spanning between the hulls, using the Teknicraft design from your
parts (New Zealand). My understanding is that the foil only becomes
effective at speeds exceeding 20 knots. At slower speeds the increased drag
of the foil exceeds the performance advantages of increased lift, which is
almost nonexistent at slow speeds.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
End of Power-Catamaran Digest, Vol 55, Issue 7
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham" graham@trawlercatmarine.com
Hello Arild
It would certainly be impossible for a boat to not use battery power
altogether as low voltage DC is required for navigation equipment, engine
starting, and many other uses around the boat and I didn't state there
were
no batteries at all I was simply referring to the propulsion system.
Thanks for the basic electricity lesson Graham. Guess I needed that. It
never hurts to review the I squared R laws. < smile>
By hybrid propulsion system I was in fact referring to sucessful systems
such as the water taxi boats used in FT. Lauderdale which is part of the
Broward county public transit system. Although originally intended only as
a means to lower exhaust emissions these new designs proved to consume
20% less fuel than the same size water taxis using conventional Cat 3208
engines and being run on exactly the same transit routes.
The two original boats used a 70 kW John Deere genset and a 45 HP Baldor
AC motor for propulsion.Later versions used a 100 kW J-D genset probably
because the skippers were used to full reverse throttle to stop the boats
at each landing and this had a bad habit of tripping the overload circuit
in the electronic drivers for the electric motors. When I checked back a
year later, these teething problems were past history and everyone like the
hybrid drives.
Who said anything about 12x12V batteries. That is a characteristics
primarily of the Solomon Technologies design.
Being from down under I figured you would also be quite familiar with the
solar powered ferry in Sydney harbor. Its a power cat.
Arild