Empathy List Archives

JH

Jared Harrison

Wed, Jun 4, 2025 8:56 PM

Good afternoon everyone:

I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make sure by posing the question to the group.

One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government, has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove, or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in anyone’s mind.

Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest solely with the manager?

Thanks,

Jared Harrison
Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc.
202 N. 6th Street
P.O. Box 658
Kingfisher, OK 73750
(Phone) 405-375-6484
(Fax) 405-375-6413
Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com mailto:jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com
Website: www.hmlawoffice.com http://www.hmlawoffice.com/
HM

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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484.

Good afternoon everyone: I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make sure by posing the question to the group. One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government, has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove, or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in anyone’s mind. Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest solely with the manager? Thanks, Jared Harrison Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc. 202 N. 6th Street P.O. Box 658 Kingfisher, OK 73750 (Phone) 405-375-6484 (Fax) 405-375-6413 Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com<mailto:jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com> Website: www.hmlawoffice.com<http://www.hmlawoffice.com/> HM [AY8OaK+2H4ydAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484.

ML

Matt Love

Wed, Jun 4, 2025 9:39 PM

My argument:

The Manager's power to "remove, demote, lay off or suspend" is linked, by
statute, to their power to appoint. 11 O.S. 10-113(1). That power extends
to administrative officers of the City "except as otherwise provided by
law." But the State statutes expressly vest the power to appoint the Clerk
and the Treasurer with the Council. 11 O.S. 10-117 & 10-118. Plainly the
Manager doesn't have the power to appoint the Clerk or Treasurer. So, then,
I would argue the Manager does not have the power to remove the Clerk or
Treasurer.

In this instance, the statute expressly addresses the power to appoint but
does not expressly address the power to remove in the same statute. But the
power would still be vested with the Council as the body with the power to
make the appointment. 11 O.S. 10-121 recognizes as much (addressing removal
of an officer of the City "by the city manager or other authority which has
the power to appoint or elect the officer"). It's also long been recognized
that the power to appoint caries with it the inherent / implied power to
remove except where that power has been expressly vested with another
person/entity or taken away (or where the position is an elected position
with a person appointed to fill a vacancy).

So that'd be my argument. It's a position appointed for an indefinite term,
so is subject to removal. The Manager has no authority over the appointment
and, so, has no authority to remove. The Council expressly has the power to
appoint and, since removal is not expressly addressed, the Council's
appointment power carries with it the inherent and implied power to remove.

Matt

On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:56 PM Jared Harrison via Oama oama@lists.imla.org
wrote:

Good afternoon everyone:

I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make
sure by posing the question to the group.

One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government,
has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all
aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the
council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be
handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to
appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific
provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while
the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole
authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council
appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than
the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove,
or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in
anyone’s mind.

Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the
treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest
solely with the manager?

Thanks,

Jared Harrison
Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc.
202 N. 6th Street
P.O. Box 658
Kingfisher, OK 73750
(Phone) 405-375-6484
(Fax) 405-375-6413
Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com
Website: www.hmlawoffice.com
HM

[image: AY8OaK+2H4ydAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC]

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents,
files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information
which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use
of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any
review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information
contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and
notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484.

Oama mailing list -- oama@lists.imla.org
To unsubscribe send an email to oama-leave@lists.imla.org

My argument: The Manager's power to "remove, demote, lay off or suspend" is linked, by statute, to their power to appoint. 11 O.S. 10-113(1). That power extends to administrative officers of the City "except as otherwise provided by law." But the State statutes expressly vest the power to appoint the Clerk and the Treasurer with the Council. 11 O.S. 10-117 & 10-118. Plainly the Manager doesn't have the power to appoint the Clerk or Treasurer. So, then, I would argue the Manager does not have the power to remove the Clerk or Treasurer. In this instance, the statute expressly addresses the power to appoint but does not expressly address the power to remove in the same statute. But the power would still be vested with the Council as the body with the power to make the appointment. 11 O.S. 10-121 recognizes as much (addressing removal of an officer of the City "by the city manager or other authority which has the power to appoint or elect the officer"). It's also long been recognized that the power to appoint caries with it the inherent / implied power to remove except where that power has been expressly vested with another person/entity or taken away (or where the position is an elected position with a person appointed to fill a vacancy). So that'd be my argument. It's a position appointed for an indefinite term, so is subject to removal. The Manager has no authority over the appointment and, so, has no authority to remove. The Council expressly has the power to appoint and, since removal is not expressly addressed, the Council's appointment power carries with it the inherent and implied power to remove. Matt On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:56 PM Jared Harrison via Oama <oama@lists.imla.org> wrote: > Good afternoon everyone: > > > > I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make > sure by posing the question to the group. > > > > One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government, > has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all > aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the > council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be > handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to > appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific > provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while > the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole > authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council > appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than > the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove, > or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in > anyone’s mind. > > > > Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the > treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest > solely with the manager? > > > > Thanks, > > Jared Harrison > Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc. > 202 N. 6th Street > P.O. Box 658 > Kingfisher, OK 73750 > (Phone) 405-375-6484 > (Fax) 405-375-6413 > Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com > Website: www.hmlawoffice.com > HM > > [image: AY8OaK+2H4ydAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC] > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, > files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information > which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use > of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any > review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information > contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If > you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and > notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484. > -- > Oama mailing list -- oama@lists.imla.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oama-leave@lists.imla.org >

BA

Beth Anne Childs

Wed, Jun 4, 2025 10:38 PM

I agree.

Beth Anne Childs

The Childs Law Firm, PLLC

1015 South Detroit Avenue

Tulsa, Oklahoma. 74120

(918) 521-3092

From: Matt Love via Oama oama@lists.imla.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 4:39 PM
To: Jared Harrison jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com
Cc: oama@lists.imla.org oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Re: Termination of Treasurer - Council/Manager City

My argument:

The Manager's power to "remove, demote, lay off or suspend" is linked, by statute, to their power to appoint. 11 O.S. 10-113(1). That power extends to administrative officers of the City "except as otherwise provided by law." But the State statutes expressly vest the power to appoint the Clerk and the Treasurer with the Council. 11 O.S. 10-117 & 10-118. Plainly the Manager doesn't have the power to appoint the Clerk or Treasurer. So, then, I would argue the Manager does not have the power to remove the Clerk or Treasurer.

In this instance, the statute expressly addresses the power to appoint but does not expressly address the power to remove in the same statute. But the power would still be vested with the Council as the body with the power to make the appointment. 11 O.S. 10-121 recognizes as much (addressing removal of an officer of the City "by the city manager or other authority which has the power to appoint or elect the officer"). It's also long been recognized that the power to appoint caries with it the inherent / implied power to remove except where that power has been expressly vested with another person/entity or taken away (or where the position is an elected position with a person appointed to fill a vacancy).

So that'd be my argument. It's a position appointed for an indefinite term, so is subject to removal. The Manager has no authority over the appointment and, so, has no authority to remove. The Council expressly has the power to appoint and, since removal is not expressly addressed, the Council's appointment power carries with it the inherent and implied power to remove.

Matt

On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:56 PM Jared Harrison via Oama <oama@lists.imla.org mailto:oama@lists.imla.org> wrote:

Good afternoon everyone:

I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make sure by posing the question to the group.

One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government, has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove, or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in anyone’s mind.

Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest solely with the manager?

Thanks,

Jared Harrison
Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc.
202 N. 6th Street
P.O. Box 658
Kingfisher, OK 73750
(Phone) 405-375-6484
(Fax) 405-375-6413
Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com mailto:jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com
Website: www.hmlawoffice.com https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.hmlawoffice.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=nXKfuf4vsSem_u3Z6akkNwa-wdRKfaLyad3_bsmBVW0&m=FPa22U6n5C8g4yGAhkbYzFC9zJcruVnkVpMxfBUUaVmcKjotgLf8LCGpOqDuWMwQ&s=84LCLjjv3bp9OXJq9z5ZPUYs3spEfMOLqMjXlXRzR-0&e=
HM

[AY8OaK+2H4ydAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC]

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484.

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I agree. Beth Anne Childs The Childs Law Firm, PLLC 1015 South Detroit Avenue Tulsa, Oklahoma. 74120 (918) 521-3092 ________________________________ From: Matt Love via Oama <oama@lists.imla.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 4:39 PM To: Jared Harrison <jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com> Cc: oama@lists.imla.org <oama@lists.imla.org> Subject: [Oama] Re: Termination of Treasurer - Council/Manager City My argument: The Manager's power to "remove, demote, lay off or suspend" is linked, by statute, to their power to appoint. 11 O.S. 10-113(1). That power extends to administrative officers of the City "except as otherwise provided by law." But the State statutes expressly vest the power to appoint the Clerk and the Treasurer with the Council. 11 O.S. 10-117 & 10-118. Plainly the Manager doesn't have the power to appoint the Clerk or Treasurer. So, then, I would argue the Manager does not have the power to remove the Clerk or Treasurer. In this instance, the statute expressly addresses the power to appoint but does not expressly address the power to remove in the same statute. But the power would still be vested with the Council as the body with the power to make the appointment. 11 O.S. 10-121 recognizes as much (addressing removal of an officer of the City "by the city manager or other authority which has the power to appoint or elect the officer"). It's also long been recognized that the power to appoint caries with it the inherent / implied power to remove except where that power has been expressly vested with another person/entity or taken away (or where the position is an elected position with a person appointed to fill a vacancy). So that'd be my argument. It's a position appointed for an indefinite term, so is subject to removal. The Manager has no authority over the appointment and, so, has no authority to remove. The Council expressly has the power to appoint and, since removal is not expressly addressed, the Council's appointment power carries with it the inherent and implied power to remove. Matt On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:56 PM Jared Harrison via Oama <oama@lists.imla.org<mailto:oama@lists.imla.org>> wrote: Good afternoon everyone: I am pretty confident that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to make sure by posing the question to the group. One of my cities, operating under the council/manager form of government, has had a question arise about terminating the treasurer. As you are all aware, 11 OS § 10-118 states that the treasurer is to be appointed by the council. Additionally, we also all know that personnel matters are to be handled by the city manager. Normally, the person/body with the ability to appoint also has the ability to terminate. My thought is that the specific provisions of 10-113 would override the “normal” rule and means that while the council appoints the treasurer, the manager still has the sole authority to terminate that position. The statute about the council appointing the treasurer appears to have been amended more recently than the statute that gives the city manager sole authority to appoint, remove, or demote heads of departments and other employees, if that matters in anyone’s mind. Does anyone think that the council have the power to terminate the treasurer, or like everything else in council/manager cities does it rest solely with the manager? Thanks, Jared Harrison Harrison & Mecklenburg, Inc. 202 N. 6th Street P.O. Box 658 Kingfisher, OK 73750 (Phone) 405-375-6484 (Fax) 405-375-6413 Email: jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com<mailto:jared.harrison@hmlawoffice.com> Website: www.hmlawoffice.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.hmlawoffice.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=nXKfuf4vsSem_u3Z6akkNwa-wdRKfaLyad3_bsmBVW0&m=FPa22U6n5C8g4yGAhkbYzFC9zJcruVnkVpMxfBUUaVmcKjotgLf8LCGpOqDuWMwQ&s=84LCLjjv3bp9OXJq9z5ZPUYs3spEfMOLqMjXlXRzR-0&e=> HM [AY8OaK+2H4ydAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at (405) 375-6484. -- Oama mailing list -- oama@lists.imla.org<mailto:oama@lists.imla.org> To unsubscribe send an email to oama-leave@lists.imla.org<mailto:oama-leave@lists.imla.org>