Dear All,

Yes, we can all just "get along." (As long as you do things my way.)

Paul

Mar 28, 2013 09:20:06 AM, sailor1205@aol.com wrote:

HI ALL

IF AND WHEN RACE RIOT ARRIVES ON THE RACE COURSE I PLAN TO ENJOY WEDNESDAY NIGHT RACING.

I PLAN TO CRUISE ON WEEK ENDS,

I PLAN ON ENJOYING MY FRIENDS.AND ON THE OCCASSION THAT I AWAKE TO A BEAUTIFUL SUNDAY MORNING AT THE MOORING I WILL ENJOY MY SUNDAY 8:00 AM RUN AROUND "MY" RIVER.

IT IS BETTER TO DO WELL IN A LARGE GROUP, THAN A SMALL GROUP.

AND A WELL EARNED TROPHY IS A WELL EARNED TROPHY.

AND IN THE WORDS OF A FAMOUS CALIFORNIAN

"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG"

morris azar

-----Original Message-----
From: DICK BRACKEN
To: Lee Luce
Cc: wednightracing
Sent: Wed, Mar 27, 2013 6:11 pm
Subject: Re: [CruisingFleetRacing] Cruising Fleet Statistics

MOONSHINE (A Div) does not use NBC one-design sailors for crew. We are not offended by the suggestion.

Dick Bracken and Allen Fligor

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Lee Luce wrote:

To All -

Attached are the racing statistics from 2012 for our Cruising Fleet.

Some highlights:

There were 50 races scheduled, but only 28 races were completed (not including HRYRA events).

Eighteen races were canceled due to no wind, or bad weather.

Four race days had good wind, but no Cruising Fleet boats showed up on the starting line.

The A Division spinnaker boats raced only on Wednesdays. If they raced on Sundays it was in the non-spinnaker divisions.

All races had a minimum of three boats on the starting line.

Fifteen boats raced on Sundays, 27 boats raced on Wednesdays. Four boats who raced on Sundays did not race on Wednesdays.

Ten boats were listed in the spinnaker A Division, thus a DNC (Did not Compete) = 11.

Fifteen boats were listed in the non-spinnaker C Division (PHRF < 187), thus a DNC = 16.

Six boats were listed in the non-spinnaker D Division (PHRF > 187), thus a DNC = 7.

Racing Frequency

As you can see from the data, the highest frequency of racing was in the D Division (64%); the lowest frequency of racing was in the spinnaker A Division (41%).

Only three boats attained 60% or greater frequency of racing.

The average frequency of racing was: A Division - 23.9%, C Division 30.0%, D Division 45.8%.

Nine boats (out of 31) raced in less than 5 races. Those boats with the smallest racing percentage were all in the spinnaker A Division because they did not race on Sundays.

Lee’s recommendations (for what it’s worth)

1. Honor and use the U.S. Racing Rules of Sailing for scoring.

2. Request all racers register by getting a PHRF before May 1 st , and announce the PHRF scoring divisions before the first race on May 5th. (Suggestion: within the non-spinnaker group, three divisions might be considered for smaller divisions to improve competition, not two.)

3. Require all scored racers to be paid members of the Cruising Fleet by the time they start racing.

4. According to the NBC Sailing Instructions, three boats must race to have a fleet start . (Less than three boats on the starting line must start with the Open Fleet.) As in the past, if three boats race but only one completes the course in the allotted time, all boats are scored . Likewise, if only one boat completes the race course, that boat receives a score and is not penalized because no other competitor shows up. In other words, while you need three boats to have a starting gun from the race Committee, only one boat needs to run the course for the race to count.

5. A boat should complete a minimum of 10% of the races scheduled to be considered a registered boat. Remember, the lower the percentage, the more you encourage racers to come out and try.

6. Boats that compete in HRYRA races may receive an average of their annual scores at NBC for the races missed at Nyack, if a Nyack race is held. The Around Long Island Race should not be considered part of the Nyack racing venue, and boats competing in that race should not receive an average of their score.

7. Skippers that volunteer time on the Race Committee and Race Patrol, not as part of their Club duty obligation, may receive an average of their annual score for that race.

8. As proposed, the annual Club trophy should be determined by performance in all Cruising Fleet venues for 2013 including Sunday, Regatta, and Wednesday Night racing. Plus see #6 above for HRYRA racing to be included.

9. In addition, Fleet trophies should be awarded for Sunday, Wednesday Night, Spring Series and Fall Series competitions.

I notice that most of these e-mails below strongly represent members who race (or crew) in the spinnaker A Division, roughly one-third of those who race in the Cruising fleet. Could it be that these members pull their crew from one-design racers in the Club, and so have a vested interest in not racing on weekends? If this observation offends, I apologize. But one would be remiss not to mention it.

Lee Luce

Cruising Fleet Secretary

From: Carmen and Ruth Yannelli [<a href="" http:="" mailto:ruthcarm="" target="_blank">mailto:ruthcarm@optonline.net</a>]

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 10:19 PM

To: 'Eric Baumes'; <a href="" http:="" mailto:luce01="" target="_blank">luce01@optonline.net</a>; 'Gary Tenenbaum'; 'Osman Kurtulus'; 'Cruising Fleet Racers'

Subject: RE: [CruisingFleetRacing] Trophies and Scoring for Cruising Fleet

A couple of thoughts, I like the idea of a boat having to compete in a minimum number of races to be scored for the overall trophy. I also like the idea of a minimum number of boats on the line for a race to count towards the season standings. I would suggest a 60/40 rule, you have to race in 60% of the races in order to be counted in the scoring and a race will only count if 40% of the fleet (those that raced in 60% of the races) showed up. This could lead to a lot of suspense at the end of the season trying to figure out who won the award, but we have a few months to figure it out... This solves a couple of problems without setting things in stone. The debate over which races to include goes away, if boats show up on a given day the race counts, if they don't show up it does not count. It's very simple and reflects the will of the fleet to show up and race. I think in the long run this would build participation in Sundays, maybe not everyone at once, but a few boats at a time. The other problem solved is the penalty for missing a race. Assume that 10 boats race over the course of the season in a given fleet, but 4 of them only race in a handful of races. The penalty for missing a race would be 6 + 1 not 10 +1, because boats 7, 8, 9 and 10 would not be counted towards the overall scoring.

As far as the PHRF certificates and fleet membership are concerned, out of courtesy to the sucker who has to handle all of the scoring, get your PHRF certificates and pay your fleet dues before the season begins. It only creates more work for the guy that's volunteering his time to do the scoring.

Lastly, as far as HRYRA and other races (ALIR/Vineyard/etc) are concerned, I feel that we should be supporting the folks who are trying to step up their game and are representing our club in these events. Consider giving an average score for a boat that ventures out to these venues. Other fleets in the club do the same thing for boats that are traveling. You could also count these boats towards the minimum on any given day and may find out that more races count because we are including more boats in the scoring.

Carmen

From: Wednightracing [ <a>mailto:wednightracing-bounces@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>] On Behalf Of Eric Baumes

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:40 PM

To: <a>luce01@optonline.net</a>; Gary Tenenbaum; Osman Kurtulus; Cruising Fleet Racers

Subject: Re: [CruisingFleetRacing] Trophies and Scoring for Cruising Fleet <a></a>

<a></a>

As Gary pointed out we can modify Appendix A at will we do it all the time. I think anyone last year could have asked for redress in scoring as boats that did not "register" regularly sailed and were scored. <a></a>

<a></a>

As for Wed vs. Sun vs. Holiday regattas I think tradition has to look at reality. 3-4x more boats race wednesday than Sunday and the turnout for Holiday regattas for cruising boats is not any better. Tradition is great, but the shift towards weekday vespers series for big boat racing is a national phenomenon. Economics, shifting demographics and family commitments are changing the nature of the sport and how people play it. We can either change with the times or continue fight it. <a></a>

<a></a>

I have raced on and off on sundays at the club since 2004, and there have never been more than a handful of boats on the line. When I was racing with Jack Yates, often time is was just us and Lipscomb. I think we should have a cruising start on Sunday, but I don't know if it is what people think of when they think of cruising fleet (PHRF) racing at the club. Perhaps we should listen to the numbers and the participants. <a></a>

<a></a>

Finally I take umbrage at the insinuation that I would score counter to the RRS as modified by the NoR or SIs. I am however as far as I know still entitled to an opinion. <a></a>

<a></a>

Sincerely, <a></a>

<a></a>

E. A. Baumes <a></a>

<a></a>

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 5:29 PM, < <a>luce01@optonline.net</a>> wrote: <a></a>

Eric - <a></a>

I would like to point out that if you, as appointed head scorer, insist on " I am for counting DNC and DNS the same per Osman's recommendation " then any racer may legitimately protest and request the race results be thrown out because the scoring does not conform to the Racing Rules of Sailing. The SIs are clear that we sail under the RRS, but the fleets are responsible for their own scoring. That doesn't mean anyone has authority to change the rules at will. <a></a>

You are, of course, correct that the PHRF divisions last year were horribly out of whack leading to great scoring inequities, especially in the C division. I strongly suggest that attention be paid to a more equal set of PHRF divisions (for example, no more than 8 boats per division), and that the fleet decide the minimum number of races a boat must complete to be counted in series scoring. These rules should be in effect before the start of the racing season. <a></a>

I am quite pained that anyone would think that regatta or Sunday racing should not be taken seriously. This is the heart, and historic core-being, of our Club. You must remember than some members work during the week and can't make a 6:30 pm start time on Wednesday nights. But most people can race on Sundays if they choose. <a></a>

Lee <a></a>

----- Original Message -----

From: Eric Baumes

Date: Monday, March 25, 2013 1:47 pm

Subject: Re: [CruisingFleetRacing] Trophies and Scoring for Cruising Fleet <a></a>

To: David Otterbein

Cc: <a>wednightracing@nyackboatclub.org</a>, <a>wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>

> My 2 cents.

>

> One of the problems we have with scoring the long series is the

> fact that

> many boats show up for a race or two, then don't come back. Or boats

> register for the 'series' then don't race.

>

> What then happens is the DNC - number of registrants plus one

> can become an

> onerous penalty. If you exceed throw outs and miss an extra race the

> penalty can be something crazy like14, when normally half that

> number of

> boats race.

>

> As we don't have or enforce a rigorous registration process I am for

> counting DNC and DNS the same per Osman's recommendation.

>

> As it stands now, I don't think anyone who is actually serious

> about racing

> takes any of the Over all cruising fleet trophies seriously.

> Most just race

> on Wednesday and that is what they are in it for.

>

> Eric

>

> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:15 PM, David Otterbein <a></a>

> wrote:

> > Os,

> > The scoring program does all the proper scoring automaticly,

> it really

> > can't get any easier.

> >

> > dave

> >

> > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Gary Tenenbaum <a></a>

> wrote:>

> >> ** <a></a>

> >> Lee is pretty close on this issue. However, consider that

> the fleet may

> >> amend Appendix 'A' in any way it chooses so long as it is

> stated in the

> >> sailing instructions. In this case, because the fleet sails

> in several

> >> regattas and series that are controlled by various sailing

> instructions,>> and each sailing instruction notes that the

> fleet will determine its own

> >> scoring, you can choose any method you want without further

> notice in the

> >> SIs.

> >>

> >> Most of the fleets at NBC (if not all) award an average score

> to a

> >> competitor that does not compete because the owner or skipper

> of that boat

> >> is working on Race Committee, Race Patrol or an away regatta

> or series or

> >> qualifying race. I suggest you to add this to your scoring

> system as it

> >> encourages Cruising Fleet members to participate in the above noted

> >> situation.

> >>

> >> If you divide your season series into smaller segments, it is

> easier and

> >> more equitable to apply various scoring penalties, i.e. a

> boat that cannot

> >> compete in the spring may be able to sail the rest of the

> season but will

> >> start the summer with a considerable number of points.

> >>

> >> Please note the recommendation after Rule A11 and consider

> utilizing some

> >> of the ideas.

> >>

> >> Gary

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> ----- Original Message ----- <a></a>

> >> *From:* Lee Luce

> >> *To:* 'Osman Coskun Kurtulus' ;

> >> <a>wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>;

> >> <a>wednightracing@nyackboatclub.org</a>

> >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 11:47 PM

> >> *Subject:* Re: [CruisingFleetRacing] Trophies and Scoring for

> Cruising>> Fleet

> >>

> >> To All –**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> I am very concerned that the proposed scoring system for 2013

> outlined in <a></a>

> >> Osman’s e-mail below does not follow the *U.S. Racing Rules

> of Sailing* “

> >> *for a series longer than a regatta*”. ****

> >>

> >> Please see Rule A9 of the 2013-2016 rules: “*A boat that did <a></a>

> not come to

> >> the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing

> place one more <a></a>

> >> than the number of boats entered in the series.”* **** <a></a>

> >>

> >> A boat that is registered for a Regatta, but does not race is

> termed DNS

> >> (Did Not Start). A DNS is scored one more than the number of

> starters (same <a></a>

> >> as the number of boats registered for that regatta).**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> A group of races held longer than a regatta is termed a <a></a>

> *series*.****>>

> >> A boat that is registered for *more than a regatta *(such as the <a></a>

> >> Wednesday Night series, the Sunday series, etc.), but does

> not race is

> >> termed DNC (Did Not Compete). A DNC is scored one more than

> the number <a></a>

> >> registered.**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> The number of boats “entered in the series” are defined as

> the number of <a></a>

> >> registered boats for that series. ****

> >>

> >> Likewise, a Did Not Finish (DNF) is scored “*one more than

> the number of

> >> boats that came to the starting area**”*. Thus if 4 boats <a></a>

> start the race

> >> and one boat gets a DNF, her score shall be 5. The proposed

> scoring system <a></a>

> >> would award a DNF score equal to last place in that race.**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> Please think about why these rules are written the way they

> are. We use

> >> the low point scoring system. The fewer points you

> accumulate, the better.

> >> The proposed method minimizes the scoring penalty for a boat

> that does not <a></a>

> >> race. The *same number of points* are awarded for a boat that gets <a></a>

> >> disqualified (DSQ), does not start (DNS), does not compete

> (DNC), and does

> >> not finish (DNF) the race. Are we sure we want that? Are we

> sure want to go <a></a>

> >> against the *U.S. Rules of Sailing*?****

> >>

> >> Lastly, please see the *Telltale* article from August 2012 <a></a>

> detailing how

> >> all of the fleets at Nyack score their races. While there are some

> >> differences (such as which home or away regattas are included

> in year-end

> >> scoring), all of the Fleets abide by the scoring rules of

> U.S. Sailing. I <a></a>

> >> strongly believe the Cruising Fleet should do the same.**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> I am encouraged that the Club Trophy in 2013 will be awarded

> based on all

> >> of the NBC Cruising Fleet racing events, not just Wednesday

> Night racing. <a></a>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> Lee Luce****

> >>

> >> Cruising Fleet Secretary****

> >>

> >> ** **

> >>

> >> ** **

> >>

> >> *From:* Wednightracing [mailto:

> >> <a>wednightracing-bounces@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>] *On Behalf

> Of *Osman

> >> Coskun Kurtulus

> >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:17 PM

> >> *To:* <a>wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>;

> >> <a>wednightracing@nyackboatclub.org</a>

> >> *Subject:* [CruisingFleetRacing] Trophies and Scoring for

> Cruising Fleet*

> >> ***

> >>

> >> ** **

> >>

> >> Hello Racers,****

> >>

> >> **** <a></a>

> >>

> >> While we are getting excited about the coming up season, I

> wanted to get

> >> your input on couple of notions that we have been <a></a>

> contemplating. **** <a></a>

> >>

> >> I have discussed these with several frequent racers, a soft

> committee per

> >> se; and the following changes which we propose to improve our <a></a>

> scoring>> system and awarding our trophies for 2013 racing season.****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> *TROPHIES:*****

> >>

> >> *CLUB Trophy* **** <a></a>

> >>

> >> This trophy is awarded to each fleet by the club and covers

> >> the entire season. We will score this with the combination of

> the following <a></a>

> >> races/regattas,****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> *Wednesday Night Series*****

> >>

> >> *+*****

> >>

> >> *Sunday Series*****

> >>

> >> *+*****

> >>

> >> *Memorial Day Regatta*****

> >>

> >> *Guy Multon Regatta*****

> >>

> >> *Labor Day Regatta*****

> >>

> >> *NBC Last Chance Regatta*****

> >>

> >> *Hudson River Long Distance Race*****

> >>

> >> ** **

> >>

> >> *CRUISING FLEET Sunday Series Trophy***** <a></a>

> >>

> >> This trophy is for our own fleet’s award and we will score

> this based on <a></a>

> >> the following races/regattas,****

> >>

> >> *Sunday Series only*****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> *CRUISING FLEET Wednesday Night Series Trophy***** <a></a>

> >>

> >> This trophy is for our own fleet’s award and we will score

> this based on <a></a>

> >> the following races/regattas,****

> >>

> >> *Wednesday Night Series only*****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> *SCORING:***** <a></a>

> >>

> >> Eric Baumes will be the official Scorer for the Cruising

> Fleet. (I will <a></a>

> >> be his back up at his absence)****

> >>

> >> ** ** <a></a>

> >>

> >> We will score the boats Did Not Start (DNS) number of starts <a></a>

> + 1**** <a></a>

> >>

> >> We will score the boats Did Not Finish (DNF) last place (4

> boats start in <a></a>

> >> any race and each DNF will be scored 4)****

> >>

> >> We will score the boats Disqualified (DSQ) number of starts + 1****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> So what say you?****

> >>

> >> Please say *YES* or *NO* by replying to this email to me, so

> that I can

> >> tally the votes to move forward.****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> Best****

> >>

> >> ****

> >>

> >> Osman Kurtulus****

> >>

> >> Cruising Fleet Captain (Racing) ****

> >>

> >> ** **

> >>

> >> <a>(917)-774-7454</a>****

> >>

> >> ------------------------------ <a></a>

> >>

> >> _______________________________________________

> >> Wednightracing mailing list

> >> <a>Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>

> >>

> >>

> http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org>>

> >>

> >> _______________________________________________

> >> Wednightracing mailing list

> >> <a>Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>

> >>

> >>

> http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org>>

> >>

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > Wednightracing mailing list

> > <a>Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>

> >

> >

> http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org>

> >

>

---

_______________________________________________

Wednightracing mailing list

<a href="" http:="" mailto:wednightracing="" target="_blank">Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>

http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org

<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><tt>_______________________________________________
Wednightracing mailing list
<a href="" http:="" mailto:wednightracing="" target="_blank">Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>
<a href="http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org" target="_blank">http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org</a>
</tt>

---

_______________________________________________
Wednightracing mailing list
Wednightracing@maillist.nyackboatclub.org
http://maillist.nyackboatclub.org/mailman/listinfo/wednightracing_maillist.nyackboatclub.org