SC
Stewart Cobb
Thu, May 2, 2013 9:29 AM
A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
foot, three ns per meter).
Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
time-nut, that might not be good enough.
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/
But few do, so far.
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
"37.384542, -122.005526"
"37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
and enjoy increased accuracy.
A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php
For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
location.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl
Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
"ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
Hope someone find this useful.
Cheers!
--Stu
A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
foot, three ns per meter).
Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
time-nut, that might not be good enough.
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
<http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/>
But few do, so far.
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
"37.384542, -122.005526"
"37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
and enjoy increased accuracy.
A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
<http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php>
For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
location.
<http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl>
Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
"ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
Hope someone find this useful.
Cheers!
--Stu
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Thu, May 2, 2013 12:22 PM
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
Google Maps, you have different problems.
In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
antennas actual position, it needs the apperant position, which
takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
This is a much better strategy:
http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
In message <CAPXiX5ricf=Ea0B=C2yR8iX+70SRtfJ9jeuTkgUQEhh5iZbN1A@mail.gmail.com>, Stewart Cobb writes:
>The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
Google Maps, you have different problems.
In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
antennas _actual_ position, it needs the _apperant_ position, which
takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
This is a much better strategy:
http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
GR
Gabs Ricalde
Thu, May 2, 2013 1:21 PM
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/
But few do, so far.
There are relatively cheap single frequency GPS receivers that output
raw (code and carrier phase) measurements. If you are near a base
station (e.g., [1]) that provides similar measurements, you can use
RTKLIB to post process both measurements and obtain a position within a
few cm.
A sample plot of the position of the patch antenna outside my window is
attached. The receiver is a u-blox LEA-6T, the RINEX of the base station
is from an IGS station 7.2 km away.
[1] http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/network/netindex.html
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:
> GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
> to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
> expensive and difficult to borrow.
>
> A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
> data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
> the antenna position.
>
> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/>
>
> But few do, so far.
>
There are relatively cheap single frequency GPS receivers that output
raw (code and carrier phase) measurements. If you are near a base
station (e.g., [1]) that provides similar measurements, you can use
RTKLIB to post process both measurements and obtain a position within a
few cm.
A sample plot of the position of the patch antenna outside my window is
attached. The receiver is a u-blox LEA-6T, the RINEX of the base station
is from an IGS station 7.2 km away.
[1] http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/network/netindex.html
CA
Chris Albertson
Thu, May 2, 2013 3:19 PM
Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
system)
I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
.5 meters more or less.
I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
a view in only one direction might be biased.
But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
Google
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb stewart.cobb@gmail.com wrote:
A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
foot, three ns per meter).
Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
time-nut, that might not be good enough.
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/
But few do, so far.
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
"37.384542, -122.005526"
"37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
and enjoy increased accuracy.
A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php
For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
location.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl
Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
"ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
Hope someone find this useful.
Cheers!
--Stu
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
system)
I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
.5 meters more or less.
I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
a view in only one direction might be biased.
But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
Google
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:
> A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
> fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
> equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
> to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
> errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
> foot, three ns per meter).
>
> Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
> on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
> time-nut, that might not be good enough.
>
> GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
> to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
> expensive and difficult to borrow.
>
> A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
> data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
> the antenna position.
>
> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/>
>
> But few do, so far.
>
> The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
> self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
> or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
>
> "37.384542, -122.005526"
>
> "37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
>
> Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
> uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
> picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
> from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
> antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
> both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
> and enjoy increased accuracy.
>
> A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
> the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
> other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
>
> Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
> Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
> known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
> same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
> easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
> Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
>
> <http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php>
>
> For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
> the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
> be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
> benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
> location.
>
> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl>
>
> Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
> through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
> "ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
>
> Hope someone find this useful.
>
> Cheers!
> --Stu
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
MC
mike cook
Thu, May 2, 2013 3:34 PM
I have a worse than optimal antenna location for my t-bolt and that just choked on being fed the google earth location which is 7.5 meters away.
Le 2 mai 2013 à 14:22, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit :
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
Google Maps, you have different problems.
In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
antennas actual position, it needs the apperant position, which
takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
This is a much better strategy:
http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I have a worse than optimal antenna location for my t-bolt and that just choked on being fed the google earth location which is 7.5 meters away.
Le 2 mai 2013 à 14:22, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit :
> In message <CAPXiX5ricf=Ea0B=C2yR8iX+70SRtfJ9jeuTkgUQEhh5iZbN1A@mail.gmail.com>, Stewart Cobb writes:
>
>> The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
>
> If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
> Google Maps, you have different problems.
>
> In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
> antennas _actual_ position, it needs the _apperant_ position, which
> takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
>
> This is a much better strategy:
>
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
>
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
L
lists@lazygranch.com
Thu, May 2, 2013 6:04 PM
Actually, wouldn't you need a satellite visible mark to use google earth? Not every marker can be seen on google earth.
Then often these markers are in places you can't use safely, such as in the middle of a road.
Note that google earth does orthorectification on the imagery. If you knew where the imagery had the least correction, that might be a place where the position data is accurate. If a tall structure looks tilted, then you know the image has had a lot of post processing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:19:17
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Precise positions for GPSDOs
Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
system)
I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
.5 meters more or less.
I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
a view in only one direction might be biased.
But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
Google
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb stewart.cobb@gmail.com wrote:
A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
foot, three ns per meter).
Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
time-nut, that might not be good enough.
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/
But few do, so far.
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
"37.384542, -122.005526"
"37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
and enjoy increased accuracy.
A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php
For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
location.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl
Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
"ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
Hope someone find this useful.
Cheers!
--Stu
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Actually, wouldn't you need a satellite visible mark to use google earth? Not every marker can be seen on google earth.
Then often these markers are in places you can't use safely, such as in the middle of a road.
Note that google earth does orthorectification on the imagery. If you knew where the imagery had the least correction, that might be a place where the position data is accurate. If a tall structure looks tilted, then you know the image has had a lot of post processing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Albertson <albertson.chris@gmail.com>
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:19:17
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement<time-nuts@febo.com>
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Precise positions for GPSDOs
Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
system)
I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
.5 meters more or less.
I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
a view in only one direction might be biased.
But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
Google
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:
> A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
> fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
> equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
> to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
> errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
> foot, three ns per meter).
>
> Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
> on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
> time-nut, that might not be good enough.
>
> GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
> to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
> expensive and difficult to borrow.
>
> A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
> data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
> the antenna position.
>
> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/>
>
> But few do, so far.
>
> The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
> self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
> or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
>
> "37.384542, -122.005526"
>
> "37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
>
> Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
> uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
> picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
> from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
> antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
> both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
> and enjoy increased accuracy.
>
> A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
> the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
> other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
>
> Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
> Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
> known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
> same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
> easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
> Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
>
> <http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php>
>
> For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
> the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
> be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
> benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
> location.
>
> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl>
>
> Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
> through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
> "ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
>
> Hope someone find this useful.
>
> Cheers!
> --Stu
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
R
Rex
Thu, May 2, 2013 7:45 PM
PHK, the big pdf link in your sneak page is broken (gives 404). Can you
fix that for us?
P.S., while you are there you could change "goory' to "gory".
On 5/2/2013 5:22 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
Google Maps, you have different problems.
In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
antennas actual position, it needs the apperant position, which
takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
This is a much better strategy:
http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
PHK, the big pdf link in your sneak page is broken (gives 404). Can you
fix that for us?
P.S., while you are there you could change "goory' to "gory".
On 5/2/2013 5:22 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <CAPXiX5ricf=Ea0B=C2yR8iX+70SRtfJ9jeuTkgUQEhh5iZbN1A@mail.gmail.com>, Stewart Cobb writes:
>
>> The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. [...]
> If your GPSDO's self-survey isn't better than the registration of
> Google Maps, you have different problems.
>
> In particular, be aware that the GPSDO does not need to know the
> antennas _actual_ position, it needs the _apperant_ position, which
> takes the reflection environment into account. (GW: "fresnel zone")
>
> This is a much better strategy:
>
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/
>
>
E
EB4APL
Fri, May 3, 2013 12:36 AM
I fully agree with Chris, do not trust Google Earth for any serious
technical use, I found errors in 100-200 m range. You only need to
check where two images are stitched.
Google Earth images are not produced by Google, they get them from other
companies or government bodies involved in making geographical
information, I can't speak about it in a whole but I actually know cases
in what Google tried to get the info for free. The metric quality (or
QUALITY) is not controlled by Google as far as I know. Think of Google
Earth as a means of providing geographical information for the layman,
for finding places, advertising and so but you don't know how accurate
it is, even the date of the images can be erroneous, you can verify this
yourself.
I had professionally advised many customers to not rely on this info for
any serious use, giving them actual examples. It is a very good and
amazing product but its goal is not to make any precise measurement, and
the GPS antenna position determination is in fact a surveying task.
Regards,
Ignacio EB4APL
On 02/05/2013 17:19, Chris Albertson wrote:
Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
system)
I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
.5 meters more or less.
I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
a view in only one direction might be biased.
But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
Google
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb stewart.cobb@gmail.com wrote:
A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
foot, three ns per meter).
Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
time-nut, that might not be good enough.
GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
expensive and difficult to borrow.
A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
the antenna position.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/
But few do, so far.
The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
"37.384542, -122.005526"
"37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
and enjoy increased accuracy.
A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php
For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
location.
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl
Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
"ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
Hope someone find this useful.
Cheers!
--Stu
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I fully agree with Chris, do not trust Google Earth for any serious
technical use, I found errors in 100-200 m range. You only need to
check where two images are stitched.
Google Earth images are not produced by Google, they get them from other
companies or government bodies involved in making geographical
information, I can't speak about it in a whole but I actually know cases
in what Google tried to get the info for free. The metric quality (or
QUALITY) is not controlled by Google as far as I know. Think of Google
Earth as a means of providing geographical information for the layman,
for finding places, advertising and so but you don't know how accurate
it is, even the date of the images can be erroneous, you can verify this
yourself.
I had professionally advised many customers to not rely on this info for
any serious use, giving them actual examples. It is a very good and
amazing product but its goal is not to make any precise measurement, and
the GPS antenna position determination is in fact a surveying task.
Regards,
Ignacio EB4APL
On 02/05/2013 17:19, Chris Albertson wrote:
> Google maps is NOT that good, it can be off by a lot, tens of meters.
>
> I had to have my property line surveyed some years ago to get a city
> building permit. So now I have two brass markers at know position.
> The survey crew used traditional transits from a brass benchmark.
> Google Earth thinks these brass markers are a few meters from here the
> survey crew said. (Yes I know about WGS84, we are all working in that
> system)
>
> I think the problem is that the lland is not flat here. If I lived
> in Kanas the Google system might work. But I don't think Google
> warps the images to account for hills and even slopes. I don't know
> the source of Google's error. The 1 Sigma on the self survey is about
> .5 meters more or less.
>
> I think the best why to measure is to let the self survey run for a
> full 24 hours so you get two full orbital periods of each satellite.
> And also to make sure you have 360 degree view of the sky. I think
> a view in only one direction might be biased.
>
> But yu can check Google. Find a few brass government benchmarks near
> your house and have Google locate them and if you got a match go with
> Google
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A GPSDO typically makes the assumption that the position of its antenna is
>> fixed and well-known. That removes position uncertainty from the navigation
>> equations, and allows all the "information" from the satellite measurements
>> to be used to improve the time estimate. Errors in this position create
>> errors in timing, with a magnitude scaled by the speed of light (one ns per
>> foot, three ns per meter).
>>
>> Most GPSDOs do some sort of position averaging when they are first turned
>> on, to come up with a good-enough estimate of antenna position. For a true
>> time-nut, that might not be good enough.
>>
>> GPS surveying equipment can easily determine the position of your antenna
>> to within a few centimeters (~20 ps). Unfortunately, such equipment is
>> expensive and difficult to borrow.
>>
>> A high-end GPSDO designed today should have the ability to record phase
>> data into RINEX files, which could be sent to a service like OPUS to find
>> the antenna position.
>>
>> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/opus/>
>>
>> But few do, so far.
>>
>> The next best idea is to locate your antenna on Google Maps. Type in the
>> self-surveyed position to the Google search box, either as decimal degrees
>> or as DMS, formatted like this but without the quote marks:
>>
>> "37.384542, -122.005526"
>>
>> "37 23 4.35, -122 0 19.89"
>>
>> Click on the map and zoom in. Click on the "Map" box in the upper right and
>> uncheck the "45 degree view" icon. Then right-click on the spot on the
>> picture where your antenna is actually located, and select "What's here?"
>> from the pop-up menu. A green arrow marker will appear, pointing to your
>> antenna. Left-click on the arrow, and read your latitude and longitude in
>> both formats. Enter one of them into your GPSDO, replacing the self-survey,
>> and enjoy increased accuracy.
>>
>> A true time-nut will take one more step to improve accuracy. (Sorry, but
>> the rest of this is specific to North America. Similar details apply to
>> other parts of the world, but I only know the recipe for the place I live.)
>>
>> Google Maps photos are registered (quite accurately) to the North American
>> Datum "NAD83". Unfortunately, your GPSDO operates in a different datum
>> known variously as WGS84, ITRF, or IGS (these are all essentially the
>> same). The difference between these two datums can be a couple of meters,
>> easily visible on the map photos and worth 5 ns or more of time error.
>> Fortunately, you can convert NAD83 to ITRF2008 at this website:
>>
>> <http://www.geod.nrcan.gc.ca/apps/tmobs/tmobs_e.php>
>>
>> For "ITRF epoch", just enter today's date. For "ellipsoidal height", use
>> the value from your self-survey if you don't have a better one. You might
>> be able to get a better one from Google Earth, or by finding a nearby
>> benchmark from this site (US only) and extrapolating to your antenna
>> location.
>>
>> <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl>
>>
>> Note that the WGS84 ellipsoid is tens of meters higher than sea level
>> through most of North America, so if you live near the ocean, your
>> "ellipsoidal height" will probably be negative.
>>
>> Hope someone find this useful.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> --Stu
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
