Captain Terry,

Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York statutes?  (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.")  We keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and for all.

This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws, right?  Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes?  Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising perspective.  There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and Seneca.

Thanks

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach, NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

Jim,

I have read them in the past and will dig into it again. In the interim,
here is a start.

Ted

http://www.queechylake.org/Documents/NYstatelaws.pdf

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tallen01@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE

Captain Terry,

Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York
statutes?  (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.")  We
keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and
for all.

This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws,
right?  Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes?
Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising
perspective.  There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake
Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of
through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and
Seneca.

Thanks

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach,
NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

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Jim,

Here is another. I am looking for more "official" documents, such as the
state statutes.

Ted

http://www.boatsafe.com/vermont/

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tallen01@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE

Captain Terry,

Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York
statutes?  (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.")  We
keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and
for all.

This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws,
right?  Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes?
Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising
perspective.  There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake
Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of
through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and
Seneca.

Thanks

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach,
NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

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Jim,

I don’t think this is morphing into the Finger Lakes etc.  The summary of NYS regulations did contain reference to the inland/self  contained lakes as part of the paragraph containing Lake Champlain.  I suppose that content could have been redacted from the paragraph, but for what purpose?  There are cruisers that just might enjoy routing via the Erie Canal to Oswego or even on to Seneca and Cayua Lakes.  Beautiful cruising areas on their own.

I suspect that for most cruisers, State sponsored summaries of sanitation laws that state such content as; “When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all over board lines disconnected and plugged." would be sufficient to understand the regulations, and allow operators to effect compliance.  I mean, what is it that about “all over board lines disconnected and plugged” is ambiguous?

Digressing somewhat.  Little did we understand when the Clean Water Act of 1972 was enacted, what power we (Congress) gave to the EPA.  Just be glad you are not a commercial passenger vessel ( think your local mom/pop inspected tour boat and up) that now is prevented from discharging graywater in the Great Lakes.  The CG will begin enforcing regulation on inspected vessels this year.  I suspect it will only be a matter of time before that too becomes restricted for recreational vessels as the agency promulgates and enforces “regulations” it believes protect human health and the environment.

Safe and compliant cruising
Capt’n Terry

From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tallen01@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE

Captain Terry,

Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York statutes?  (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.")  We keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and for all.

This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws, right?  Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes?  Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising perspective.  There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and Seneca.

Thanks

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach, NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

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Jim,
You seem to be quite focused on having list members research this subject for you to the point of providing detailed verb/verse/section/paragraph of each State’s laws.  The internet is great place to research this.  Google is your friend.
Capt’n Terry

From: Jim Healy
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2015 7:21 AM
To: Al Thomason
Cc: Tallen ; great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE

Thanks, Al!  I'm feeling a little vindicated here...

The NY text says "... any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be REMOVED OR DISCONNECTED and stored..."  As I read this, REMOVED is only an option.  DISCONNECTED (and capped) is an option.

In my case, "disconnected" is much less disruptive.

Now, what says Vermont?

Jim

On May 5, 2015, at 14:30, Al Thomason thomason.al@gmail.com wrote:

Did not take too long to dig it up:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/NAV/3/33-d

"... Any holding tank designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the waters on which the craft is operating shall have the discharge openings sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be removed or disconnected and stored while operating on the waters of said lake, its tributaries or outlets. ...."

A bit contrary to what the US Law is (AFAIK) on this topic for navigable waters.  Just poking around some it seems there might be a bit of overreach.  For example section 33-e contains:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/NAV/3/33-e
" 1. Any waters of the state of which the commissioner has received an affirmative determination regarding the adequate availability of marine sanitation device pump-out or dump station facilities pursuant to the Federal Clean Water Act, are hereby designated as vessel waste no-discharge zones."

To me this seems to be saying NYC decides NDZ, independent of the EPA..

But will leave that up to those more informed on the workings of the law them me.  Will perhaps add that we have seen before how states can attempt to overreach, and be effective, until someone challenges them in court.  (remember the Florida anchoring wars a few years ago)

-al-

Viking Star
45' Monk Sr. / McQueen
mvVikingStar.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Great-Loop [mailto:great-loop-bounces@lists.trawlering.com] On Behalf Of Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Tallen
Cc: great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE

Terry,

Well, "disconnected and plugged" does not mean "removed from the boat" or "removed from the system," or "have a gap of at least one foot," or any of the other miscellaneous comments that have been posted in this thread.  And if we're talking about fines here, that detail might matter to some people.  So yes, ambiguous.  And, also because there are other legal ways to comply with these plethora of regulations in various waters, enforced by various local, state and federal law enforcement agencies.

1. Padlock access to heads so as to preclude their use 2.  Mechanically lock overboard discharge ports 3.  Disable overboard discharge ports in their closed position SO THAT TOOLS ARE NEEDED TO OPERATE THEM 4.  Disconnect hoses 5.  Remove hoses 5.  Others

Since we don't know who wrote the pamphlet you mention, or what the agenda of the writing agency might have been, yes, it would be useful to be able to read the actual words of the statute.

Jim

On May 3, 2015, at 12:23, Tallen <tallen01@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

I mean, what is it that about “all over board lines disconnected and plugged” is ambiguous? 

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Oriental, NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

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