Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
Georgs Kolesnikovs wrote... But your numbers do point out that, for trans-oceanic passagemaking,
power catamarans don't offer as huge an advantage in performance as many people would expect. Power cats do of course have other compelling features, such as space, comfort, stability, shallow
draft, etc."
It is also interesting to look at the other features that you have mentioned plus build cost in the context a true trans-oceanic passagemaker.
Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on Malcolm's site it would appear that the inside space is about the same as a 60ft monohull... possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom. I'm only looking at plans here and would be interested to here from people who have been aboard both.
Stability, Bluewater and Seahorse are both equipped with stabilizers and the use of the same is included in their fuel burn figures. Paravanes are a hassle to deploy and fins appear to be high maintainance cost wise. What is more comfortable? a catamaran or a stabilized monohhull?
Draft, personally 3'6" or 6' draft would not make a big difference for me.
Cost, it appears that cats are costing more vs say Nordhavns but that may be because there are all custom builds at the moment.
Thanks for your thoughts
John
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John Holbrook wrote;
"Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on
Malcolm's site it would
appear that the inside space is about the same as a
60ft monohull...
possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom.
I'm only looking at
plans here and would be interested to here from
people who have been
aboard both. "
I ask, what is a valid basis for comparison of multi's
vs mono's?
WWIV is listed on Malcolm's website as displacing
#73,819.
This falls between the Nordhavn 46 #60,000, and the
Norhavn 47 #85,000. WWIV certainly has more
accomodation than either of these.
My current project, a #56,000 powercat, 62', comes in
between the Nordhavn 43 and 46, weightwise.
The Nordhavn 55 weighs in at a whopping 56.6T, twice
my displacement!
Is length comparison apples to apples?
regards,
Bill
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I don't believe either length or displacement is a fair comparison,
especially when comparing a heavily built displacement vessel like Nordhavn
to a power cat that is capable of achieving twice the speed (thus has to be
more weight sensitive). I think the industry (manufacturers) should start to
publish either square footage or even volumetric measurements (gross
tonnage?) so that the buying public can easily compare different models.
This after all is how the building trade has been doing it for years, it's
not enough to say it's a "4 bedroom, 3 bath house", but also sq. ft. "under
air" and total sq. footage.
This is especially true when trying to compare power cats with monohulls.
Kevin Ralph
Regency Yachts LLC
Office: 954 563 0666
Cell: 954 648 0855
Fax: 954 564 4244
e-mail: kevinr @regencyyachts.com
Look up vessels for sale by name or scan for vessels by size, budget or
manufacture at www.regencyyachts.com.
Looking for new cruising grounds? Check out Belize, it's closer than you
think! www.belizemarina.com
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of bill
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:48 AM
To: Power Catamaran List
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
John Holbrook wrote;
"Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on
Malcolm's site it would
appear that the inside space is about the same as a
60ft monohull...
possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom.
I'm only looking at
plans here and would be interested to here from
people who have been
aboard both. "
I ask, what is a valid basis for comparison of multi's
vs mono's?
WWIV is listed on Malcolm's website as displacing
#73,819.
This falls between the Nordhavn 46 #60,000, and the
Norhavn 47 #85,000. WWIV certainly has more
accomodation than either of these.
My current project, a #56,000 powercat, 62', comes in
between the Nordhavn 43 and 46, weightwise.
The Nordhavn 55 weighs in at a whopping 56.6T, twice
my displacement!
Is length comparison apples to apples?
regards,
Bill
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The comparison by displacement is misleading, as Nordhavns are ballasted,
and the ballast adds to displacement, but not usable volume. As a sometime
powercat designer, I'd say a more realistic comparison would be cost. I
think a $2 million production monohull will likely have as much usable space
as a $2 million cat.
Suppose we were to take a decade long ownership, the net cost would be
depreciation + operating costs including moorage and insurance.
I'd hazard a guess that assuming equal first cost and despite slightly
better fuel economy the custom powercat would cost quite a bit more in total
than the monohull. However, if the monohull was a custom boat, the reverse
might be true. In a longer time frame of 20 to 30 years, it probably would
make little difference since I expect 30 years from now ANY powerboat will
be hugely expensive to operate.
The fuel use for a motorsailer (one that actually uses her sails whenever
possible) would be a fraction of that for a pure power craft regardless of
size. On a large monohull sailboat active stabilizers can be used, even
under sail (maybe with the main engine ticking over slowly or a genset
running). I personally find a stabilized monohull more comfortable than a
cat, but I'm happy on either one.
Budget is important, even the wealthiest clients have one, it is just
bigger! Almost every custom boat faces huge depreciation in the first few
years. Reputable production boats hold their value well. I warn my custom
boat clients of this fact. That gets rid of most of them...
Kind Regards,
Grahame Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of bill
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:48 AM
To: Power Catamaran List
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
John Holbrook wrote;
"Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on Malcolm's site it would
appear that the inside space is about the same as a 60ft monohull...
possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom.
I'm only looking at
plans here and would be interested to here from people who have been
aboard both. "
I ask, what is a valid basis for comparison of multi's vs mono's?
WWIV is listed on Malcolm's website as displacing #73,819.
This falls between the Nordhavn 46 #60,000, and the Norhavn 47 #85,000.
WWIV certainly has more accomodation than either of these.
My current project, a #56,000 powercat, 62', comes in between the Nordhavn
43 and 46, weightwise.
The Nordhavn 55 weighs in at a whopping 56.6T, twice my displacement!
Is length comparison apples to apples?
regards,
Bill
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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Grahame, I'm not a professional at this, but in the many years that I've had mold and mildew growing between my toes and behind my ears, I don't recall seeing a stabilized sailing mono-hull. Is this common? Could you expound upon this?
-----Original Message-----
From: Grahame Shannon designer@aviadesign.com
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
The comparison by displacement is misleading, as Nordhavns are ballasted,
and the ballast adds to displacement, but not usable volume. As a sometime
powercat designer, I'd say a more realistic comparison would be cost. I
think a $2 million production monohull will likely have as much usable space
as a $2 million cat.
Suppose we were to take a decade long ownership, the net cost would be
depreciation + operating costs including moorage and insurance.
I'd hazard a guess that assuming equal first cost and despite slightly
better fuel economy the custom powercat would cost quite a bit more in total
than the monohull. However, if the monohull was a custom boat, the reverse
might be true. In a longer time frame of 20 to 30 years, it probably would
make little difference since I expect 30 years from now ANY powerboat will
be hugely expensive to operate.
The fuel use for a motorsailer (one that actually uses her sails whenever
possible) would be a fraction of that for a pure power craft regardless of
size. On a large monohull sailboat active stabilizers can be used, even
under sail (maybe with the main engine ticking over slowly or a genset
running). I personally find a stabilized monohull more comfortable than a
cat, but I'm happy on either one.
Budget is important, even the wealthiest clients have one, it is just
bigger! Almost every custom boat faces huge depreciation in the first few
years. Reputable production boats hold their value well. I warn my custom
boat clients of this fact. That gets rid of most of them...
Kind Regards,
Grahame Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of bill
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:48 AM
To: Power Catamaran List
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
John Holbrook wrote;
"Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on Malcolm's site it would
appear that the inside space is about the same as a 60ft monohull...
possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom.
I'm only looking at
plans here and would be interested to here from people who have been
aboard both. "
I ask, what is a valid basis for comparison of multi's vs mono's?
WWIV is listed on Malcolm's website as displacing #73,819.
This falls between the Nordhavn 46 #60,000, and the Norhavn 47 #85,000.
WWIV certainly has more accomodation than either of these.
My current project, a #56,000 powercat, 62', comes in between the Nordhavn
43 and 46, weightwise.
The Nordhavn 55 weighs in at a whopping 56.6T, twice my displacement!
Is length comparison apples to apples?
regards,
Bill
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I have only seen one, and it was a about a 60' custom design. I met the boat
and owner a few years ago in the Caribbean, and he told me the stabilizers
(I think they were Naiad, but I'm not absolutely sure) worked very well
downwind and in beam seas, and were not needed upwind when sailing.
There is no reason stabilizers cannot be used on a sailing vessel, and I
would guess they would have an easier time of it than on a motorboat due to
the additional roll damping effects of the keel and sails.
Still this is a power cat forum, so if you want to discuss this further you
might want to contact me through my website ate www.aviadesign.com
Kind Regards,
Grahame Shannon
2101 Philip Avenue
North Vancouver, BC V7P 2W5
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces+designer=aviadesign.com@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces+designer=aviadesign.com@lists.samurai.com]
On Behalf Of sealubber7@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 3:04 PM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
Grahame, I'm not a professional at this, but in the many years that I've had
mold and mildew growing between my toes and behind my ears, I don't recall
seeing a stabilized sailing mono-hull. Is this common? Could you expound
upon this?
-----Original Message-----
From: Grahame Shannon designer@aviadesign.com
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
The comparison by displacement is misleading, as Nordhavns are ballasted,
and the ballast adds to displacement, but not usable volume. As a sometime
powercat designer, I'd say a more realistic comparison would be cost. I
think a $2 million production monohull will likely have as much usable space
as a $2 million cat.
Suppose we were to take a decade long ownership, the net cost would be
depreciation + operating costs including moorage and insurance.
I'd hazard a guess that assuming equal first cost and despite slightly
better fuel economy the custom powercat would cost quite a bit more in total
than the monohull. However, if the monohull was a custom boat, the reverse
might be true. In a longer time frame of 20 to 30 years, it probably would
make little difference since I expect 30 years from now ANY powerboat will
be hugely expensive to operate.
The fuel use for a motorsailer (one that actually uses her sails whenever
possible) would be a fraction of that for a pure power craft regardless of
size. On a large monohull sailboat active stabilizers can be used, even
under sail (maybe with the main engine ticking over slowly or a genset
running). I personally find a stabilized monohull more comfortable than a
cat, but I'm happy on either one.
Budget is important, even the wealthiest clients have one, it is just
bigger! Almost every custom boat faces huge depreciation in the first few
years. Reputable production boats hold their value well. I warn my custom
boat clients of this fact. That gets rid of most of them...
Kind Regards,
Grahame Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of bill
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 5:48 AM
To: Power Catamaran List
Subject: Re: [PCW] Fuel economy, Chrysalis across the Atlantic
John Holbrook wrote;
"Looking at the plans for the 60ft Wild Wind on Malcolm's site it would
appear that the inside space is about the same as a 60ft monohull...
possibly the spaces on a monohull have more headroom.
I'm only looking at
plans here and would be interested to here from people who have been aboard
both. "
I ask, what is a valid basis for comparison of multi's vs mono's?
WWIV is listed on Malcolm's website as displacing #73,819.
This falls between the Nordhavn 46 #60,000, and the Norhavn 47 #85,000.
WWIV certainly has more accomodation than either of these.
My current project, a #56,000 powercat, 62', comes in between the Nordhavn
43 and 46, weightwise.
The Nordhavn 55 weighs in at a whopping 56.6T, twice my displacement!
Is length comparison apples to apples?
regards,
Bill
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.14/1247 - Release Date: 1/28/2008
10:59 AM
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Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.14/1247 - Release Date: 1/28/2008
10:59 AM
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