As you see from David Wilson's remarks, there is an inherent problem with surveys in the marine industry, it seems, anyone with or with out actual pratical experience in the industry can hang out a shingle saying they are a surveyor. Government regulation as in the housing sector does not guarentee accurate evaluations for home buyers as we found in purchasing our first home. Ours involved a large hole in the roof, 7 large gray squirls, nuts stored in the roof, the Department of Natural Resourcs, but that's another story............. Societies for marine surveyors, associations, the best solution at present, fall short on insuring reasonable compentency in the industry. A world renouned surveyor once explained, If your a realy good surveyor, the demands on your time are such that little time remains to devote to survey societies. So who is running these Societies? If there retired surveyors, how current are they in the field. The answer may be to bring in competent surveyors who are active in the field, in a paid copasity, therefore easing the burden of making a living, at the same time providing current industry knowledge to survey societies. Let's face it folks, the marine survey business is not a lucrative one, there are no billionair surveyors out there, at least I have yet to meet one. Survey societies as a whole, need to add a seperate certification for engine surveyors. No boat surveyor without years of experience as a qualified mechanic should be asked to asses the condition of any propulsion system. No mechanic should be asked to perform hull surveys as a condition of being a member of a Survey society, they are two seperate vocations. Cost and integrity are driving factors in the marine industry. Brokers, buyers and boat owners (sellers) are trying to make the sale. It was once said, "how would you like riding on the space shuttle knowing it was built by the lowest bidder," the same applies to marine surveys. More often than not, the buyer is a novice boater, the Broker gives a list of surveyors, some good and not so good comprise the list, but they are careful not to make recomendations as it reduces liability. Brokers don't want the surveyor to find anything which will spoil the sale, if you do, chances are you will not have your name on their "prefered surveyors list." Accurate surveys are not intended to make or spoil a sale, their intent is to advise and protect the buyer from buying into something their not prepaired for, in other words, tell the buyer what they are buying. Many Brokers do not have seperate lists for boat surveyors and mechanic/engine surveyors, you need both. Even if you are a competent mechanic, never survey the boat you are buying. In the law business, they say, "if you represent yourself in court, you have a fool for a client." Everyone who is engauged in the act of buying a boat is subject to the emotions and overwhelming nature of the process, it's easy to miss important issues, which most certainly result in paying the piper down the road. The buyer peruse the list and starts making phone calls, more often than not, the buyer selects the lowest priced surveyor or someone who is available. Not always, but often the case, most competent surveyors are backed up for months, everyone has a slow season, usually the winter. For us, the winter is just a little less crazy than the summer as we are busy year-round. Don't be cheap! Ask around the boat yards, marinas etc, look for recomendations, talk to actual buyers and find out how accurate the surveys were. Above all be willing to pay a premium price for a premium survey, you will save thousand of dollars in the long run. We charge by the hour, not by the foot. If you want accurate repair cost estimates, this takes time, don't ask for ball-park figures and be prepaired to pay extra for estimates. Parts prices in the boating escalate rapidly, no one can keep accurate figure in their head. If you want repair estimates tell the surveyor prior to the survey it make a difference in how the survey is approached. Estimates: by definition are "educated guesses", based on actual practical experience, looking up parts and cross referencing in price books and calling to get parts and labor price estimates, there are time and expences involved. Quotes: Actual repair costs, require the repair agency to make a special trip to your boat to asses the repair, compile parts and labor costs, additional outside coordination and meetings are required - time is money. Neither estimates nor quotes factor in un-seen costs, often hidden damage escalate cost of repairs. If you have to wait a long time to get the best surveyor, then wait.....If the Broker pressures you to close the deal, renegociate your contract to incorporate the delay or pass on the sale, either way you as a buyer win. Surveyors are not furniture movers. Wether it is hull or engine survey, ask the seller or pay someone to empty all lockers, move furniture, roll up carpets,open access doors and hatches, provide complete and total access to the boat or system being inspected. On most boats, complete and total access is marginal at best. Space on a boat is premium, often every conceivable amenity know to mankind is stuffed into every locker, pressure water pump, battery chargers, water-makers, SSB tuners, filtration systems, hotwater heaters, etc. Never expect a surveyor to remove 27 PFS's, boat cushions, endless coils of tangled line, boat hooks, garden hoses, anchors & rodes to just to inspect an exhaust hose, it's not going to happen, at least not for free! Distracting the surveyor: The Broker whats to make the sale, Seller wants to sell and the buyers has a thousand questions. No offence, but, while your survey is in progress, take up a hobby, go on vacation, do what ever you feel you have to do, but above all, stay away from the boat! When a Broker or Seller tries to distract me I look harder to find fault with the boat, believe it, I'll find more real problems than you ever imagined were possible. When the Buyer hits me with a constant string of questions I'm bound to miss something, this won't do. I've told buyers to go back to work, lunch, etc. I love to answer question, but after the survey is complete, not before. Surveyors are human beings, not machines, like you, we have good days and better days, we would like to have you tear the boat apart and put everything on the ground so we could walk around and inspect piece out in the open, but that is not reasonable or possible. I sympathise with David Wilson, as we have just removed our engine to gain access to remove our fuel tanks, we will also be cutting the main salon cabin sole to remove and replace our water tanks. We had clear access to the fuel tanks on three sides, corrosion and diesel seepage was present and known. The water tanks, other than a small section of the top of the tank visable through the cabin sole hatch were not accessable or visable. We later found an e-mail by the former owner sent to the Pan Oceanic Owner Group dated 2 years ago, stating a problem with the water tanks leaking, asking about a method to repair. Of course, no mention was ever made of water tank problems. People in general, fall in love with a new boat, spend a small fortune in renovation and new equipment additions, later develope other interests and boat priorities go by the wayside. Some people tend to hang on to things longer than they should, may be its fond memory of summers on the boat in the delta with the grandkids running along the deck, the association with their boating friends, who realy knows? Then one day, it's corporate down-sizing, interest wains, the spouse says it's a little hard to keep up with the bills, we are not using the boat anymore, one of the spouses passes away, they they go seperate ways or a job transfer pull them away from the area. Years of non use have passed, maintenance long since gone by the wayside, haven't seen the boat in months, even years. So, they find a broker, the engine starts and runs, must be ok. They pay someone to clean it up and away to the broker it goes. The honest broker (some are little better than used care salesmen) are praying someone will make an offer, the surveyors won't find anything and the buyer realy has money. A good surveyor (there are alot of bad ones out there, no skill just pretty business cards) are looking for a customer who is willing to pay for a decent survey, not just filling a square to buy a boat, want to be left alone to do a good job and prays he/she didn't miss anything in the process, there's more to a good survey than just looking around, he/she is not looking forward to telling the new buyer that his new love is a piece of junk and he is not looking forward to the backlash from the seller when you tell him his wife (boat) is a pig. Trust me on this one, I once had a seller, who was formerly a "big-shot" in the marine business, threaten to destroy my business because he didn't like or agree with the survey, he demanded that I "rewrite the survey or else" and I told him to pack sand. The truth isn't always pleasant, I'm still here -he is not! Customer trust is sacred in this business, the moment you cross the shaded line your done. I don't know how far you want to take this issue, as with us, we got our boat well below market value, so the cost of repair still leaves us in a good long-term position on boat cost and market value. I suspect an honest surveyor, would refund the survey cost. However, I suspect as in our case, the refund would not compensate you for the cost of replacing the tank or the time to persue it. By all means, contact the surveyor and address your issues concerning the fuel tank. You may also want to address the issue with the Broker and Seller, it's not always the case, but often a prior owner will dump a boat on the market having a known problem, trying to avoid the cost of repair. Fore warning, this can be an ugly and costly mess drawn through the courts, it's tough to prove prior knowledge by the previous owner. By snooping around the marina where the boat was primarily kept and asking question of neighboring boaters you may find someone who was aware of this issue as fuel often gets pumped overboard into neighboring slips. I've seen these persuits destroy a new boat owners love affair with their boat, so much so, the tanks were repaired and the boat was put back on the market, you'll have to ask yourselfs what it's worth to you. For us, we are moving forward to making repairs as quickly as possible, we figure we are about a year away to being back on the water, with all her flaws, she's a beautiful piece of workmanship, worth the wait. Be it power or sail we wish you the best. Marty Chin, Bay Marine Diesel my recent brush with leaking fuel tanks, and the developing saga of replacing them, caused me to review the pre purchase survey by calahan & co dated 7/30/02. in it he states that i have 4 "aluminum" fuel tanks. tanks, hoses, & fittings were inspected where visible... as a novice, i was counting on his expertise to guide me. turns out the tanks are galvanized steel, and the bottoms are covered with obvious rust, visible with a simple hand mirror thru convenient hatch accesses. just goes to show how little these surveys can mean coming from the wrong person. my wife wants to make a stink with the surveyor, but i doubt there is much use in that. david wilson morning star sarasota, florida Bay Marine Diesel 1150 Ballena Isle Blvd, #83 Alameda, CA. 94501 (510) 435-8870