Re: Stability PDQ versus Endeavour

H
HClews@aol.com
Sat, Nov 11, 2006 5:01 PM

Hello Tom,

The Endeavour 36 is the boat that first  got us interested in powercats.  We
discovered Don & Ruth Kalen's  journal (www.kalendrl.com) which describes
their transition from a  sailboat to an Endeavour 36 powercat and their many
subsequent adventures. When they chose their Endeavour, the PDQ had  just just
come onto the market, but they preferred the layout of the  Endeavour.

The Endeavour remained at the top of our  short list for a couple of years,
but when it finally came time to "take the  plunge" we ended up choosing the
PDQ.  If possible, you should try to get aboard both  these boats and see which
one you prefer.  The biggest difference  is layout - the Endeavour has is a
single-helm layout whereas the PDQ  has both inside and outside helm positions.
There are other  differences as well, the PDQ performs better.

In your subject line, you mention  stability.  I've noticed that
manufacturers of boats without a flying  bridge often claim "increased stability" for
their boats.  While this  may be theoretically true, I seriously question whether
it makes any  real difference on a small coastal cruising catamaran.  These
boats  have so much innate stability, I doubt they're much affected by the
addition of an upper helm.  I guess, what I'm trying to say is that  you should
choose the layout which appeals to you most - not the one which is  billed as
having better stability.

As for the rough-water capability of the two  boats you mention, I have heard
that the PDQ does better - but I must  admit, this was from a PDQ guy, so
take it for what it's worth.  The  clearance under the bridgedeck will determine
the point at which waves begin to  slam under there.  We've found with our PDQ
that this does begin to happen  when heading directly into short waves with a
height of over 3 feet or  so.  Interestingly enough, this pounding actually
gets lets in  larger waves, probably because the distance between the crests is
greater.  Generally, if pounding becomes a problem, we can reduce it by
changing  course a bit.  My guess is that this is a problem common to all
powercats with some being a bit better than others.  In this regard, the  center
"cutwater" that some manufacturers are now adding (notably the Manta  44 and new
PDQ 41) will, I assume, help to ameliorate this problem.

Finally, I'm not sure whether Endeavour is  even continuing to build the 36;
recently their production has focused on  their larger models.  There are, of
course used boats on the market.  Compared to the PDQ, the Endeavour 36 is
quite heavy.  Even with 125-hp  engines, its performance does not match the PDQ.
Older TC-36 models  with 100-hp engines had a rather modest 10-knot cruising
speed; even  the newer 125-hp boats don't cruise much over 12 knots.  In this
regard, the PDQ is clearly superior.

Keep you eyes open and enjoy the  process of choosing your next boat!
Henry Clews
www.geocities.com/snodoglog

In a message dated 11/10/2006 12:11:36 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
twitherby@cox.net writes:

Hi, My  name is Tom and I live in Las Vegas and have been reading the
list for  quite some time now.  I am originally from Florida where I grew
up  around boats and fishing.  I will be returning to Florida soon  after
my son graduates.  I have researching boats for several years  now in
anticipation of the move so I can be back on the water as soon  as
possible.  I have narrowed the search down to the PDQ 34 and  the
Endeavour 36 and would like to know which is better in rougher  seas?  I
am not trying to start any kind of feud between these boat  owners I
would really like to know.  Thank you in advance for your  input.

Tom

Hello Tom, The Endeavour 36 is the boat that first got us interested in powercats. We discovered Don & Ruth Kalen's journal (www.kalendrl.com) which describes their transition from a sailboat to an Endeavour 36 powercat and their many subsequent adventures. When they chose their Endeavour, the PDQ had just just come onto the market, but they preferred the layout of the Endeavour. The Endeavour remained at the top of our short list for a couple of years, but when it finally came time to "take the plunge" we ended up choosing the PDQ. If possible, you should try to get aboard both these boats and see which one you prefer. The biggest difference is layout - the Endeavour has is a single-helm layout whereas the PDQ has both inside and outside helm positions. There are other differences as well, the PDQ performs better. In your subject line, you mention stability. I've noticed that manufacturers of boats without a flying bridge often claim "increased stability" for their boats. While this may be theoretically true, I seriously question whether it makes any real difference on a small coastal cruising catamaran. These boats have so much innate stability, I doubt they're much affected by the addition of an upper helm. I guess, what I'm trying to say is that you should choose the layout which appeals to you most - not the one which is billed as having better stability. As for the rough-water capability of the two boats you mention, I have heard that the PDQ does better - but I must admit, this was from a PDQ guy, so take it for what it's worth. The clearance under the bridgedeck will determine the point at which waves begin to slam under there. We've found with our PDQ that this does begin to happen when heading directly into short waves with a height of over 3 feet or so. Interestingly enough, this pounding actually gets lets in larger waves, probably because the distance between the crests is greater. Generally, if pounding becomes a problem, we can reduce it by changing course a bit. My guess is that this is a problem common to all powercats with some being a bit better than others. In this regard, the center "cutwater" that some manufacturers are now adding (notably the Manta 44 and new PDQ 41) will, I assume, help to ameliorate this problem. Finally, I'm not sure whether Endeavour is even continuing to build the 36; recently their production has focused on their larger models. There are, of course used boats on the market. Compared to the PDQ, the Endeavour 36 is quite heavy. Even with 125-hp engines, its performance does not match the PDQ. Older TC-36 models with 100-hp engines had a rather modest 10-knot cruising speed; even the newer 125-hp boats don't cruise much over 12 knots. In this regard, the PDQ is clearly superior. Keep you eyes open and enjoy the process of choosing your next boat! Henry Clews www.geocities.com/snodoglog In a message dated 11/10/2006 12:11:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, twitherby@cox.net writes: Hi, My name is Tom and I live in Las Vegas and have been reading the list for quite some time now. I am originally from Florida where I grew up around boats and fishing. I will be returning to Florida soon after my son graduates. I have researching boats for several years now in anticipation of the move so I can be back on the water as soon as possible. I have narrowed the search down to the PDQ 34 and the Endeavour 36 and would like to know which is better in rougher seas? I am not trying to start any kind of feud between these boat owners I would really like to know. Thank you in advance for your input. Tom
MT
Malcolm Tennant
Sun, Nov 12, 2006 8:14 PM

In a recent listing Tom says that he is concerned about the relative
stability of various productiion catamarans. One of the variables involved
in stability is the height of the vertical centre of gravity[VCG].This is
one of the values that is calculated during the design process. For a vessel
being built to survey this calculation is mandatory because of the need to
produce righting moment curves for approval by a Classification Society or
Maritime Authority. But how important is the position of the VCG? A ferry
such as our 14m Hong Kong  ferry had intact and damaged stability
calculations performed. It also had a practical inclining test. So what was
the result of this calculating and testing? With all 50 passengers standing
on one side, the boat heeled 4.9 degrees. The down flooding angle [the angle
of heel when water actually enters the vessel] was 130 degrees. So, to all
intents and purposes, the initial stability of the larger power catamaran is
so high that most of the time it can probably be ignored.

However as a point of interest: if all the passengers on the 14m ferry are
sitting down  and then they stand up. The VCG moves upward by around 150mm
[6"]! And this was for 70kg Asians and not 100kg Americans.

As Henry says. It appears that what Tom is  really concerned about is not
stability anyway.

Regards,

Malcolm Tennant.  ARINA  MA

Malcolm Tennant Multihull Design Ltd
PO Box 60513 Titirangi,
Waitakere 0642
NEW ZEALAND

ph +64 9 817 1988
fax +64 9 817 6080

e-mail malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com

In a recent listing Tom says that he is concerned about the relative stability of various productiion catamarans. One of the variables involved in stability is the height of the vertical centre of gravity[VCG].This is one of the values that is calculated during the design process. For a vessel being built to survey this calculation is mandatory because of the need to produce righting moment curves for approval by a Classification Society or Maritime Authority. But how important is the position of the VCG? A ferry such as our 14m Hong Kong ferry had intact and damaged stability calculations performed. It also had a practical inclining test. So what was the result of this calculating and testing? With all 50 passengers standing on one side, the boat heeled 4.9 degrees. The down flooding angle [the angle of heel when water actually enters the vessel] was 130 degrees. So, to all intents and purposes, the initial stability of the larger power catamaran is so high that most of the time it can probably be ignored. However as a point of interest: if all the passengers on the 14m ferry are sitting down and then they stand up. The VCG moves upward by around 150mm [6"]! And this was for 70kg Asians and not 100kg Americans. As Henry says. It appears that what Tom is really concerned about is not stability anyway. Regards, Malcolm Tennant. ARINA MA Malcolm Tennant Multihull Design Ltd PO Box 60513 Titirangi, Waitakere 0642 NEW ZEALAND ph +64 9 817 1988 fax +64 9 817 6080 e-mail malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz www.tennantdesign.co.nz www.catdesigners.com