Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
Bringing out the C field in my estimation does not effect long or short
term. External magnetic field I think is a joke. An other option is a loop
that generates a tuning word for the DDS but that means your steps are 7 E-13.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/12/2012 10:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidwhess@gmail.com writes:
I was more interested in the technical details of how to adjust the
output of a RbO without sacrificing the short and long term stability.
I have seen a few designs that used a DDS to generate the 10 MHz
output which lends itself to this but they all suffer from DDS and
tuning noise. I see now that the RbO can be adjusted with an external
magnetic field.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:44 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
David,
I have been following discussions on the list about a GPSDRbO for a year
or
so. Some interesting challenges and probably best implemented in a
'stable'
environment rather than portable operation but as best I can tell, it
would
require a very stable and good antenna location, stable and clean power,
and
I was thinking of using something like an LPRO-101 with an Ext C Field
input, a Shera type controller, and a GPS timing receiver, though, I
suspect
there are likely to be some 'multi-tasking' receivers out there that will
look at several sources including GPS, GLOSNASS, etc.
While the project might be fun, for portable work, it is likely far easier
and probably just as good (almost), to use a Tbolt.
In any event, something to think about for the future.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
How would a GPSDRbO work? Phase lock the DDS output to the GPS? Phase
lock
a VCXO to the GPS and then phase lock to the RbO on loss of GPS lock?
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:55:58 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
Bill, Brian, Bill, and Peter,
Thanks for the info. All I need now is a 'project' to incorporate the
unit into.
In the back of my mind, I have the thought of a 'box' that will be
battery powered or 110 VAC powered (perhaps with an internal SLA
battery) and include a GPSDO and Rb unit (possibly a GPSDRbO) for the
purpose of a 'reference' for portable operation in the microwave
regions.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
I thought maybe they applied some kind of complicated phase locked
loop frequency and phase addition or subtraction to the RbO output. I
did not know that the RbO itself was so easily tuned.
A tuning loop for the DDS is how the noisy design worked. It is not
clear to me if the phase noise was caused by low DDS tuning word
resolution or the DDS itself. The SRS design locks the RbO to the GPS
1PPS with a time constant of up to 18 hours and then phased locks an
OCXO to generate the 10 MHz output.
Oddly enough, I ran into a similar problem in lack of tuning
resolution when I designed the source for the frequency to voltage
converter of my napkin GPSDO. I ended up with a reciprocal DDS (as
best as I can describe it) to generate a low frequency high resolution
frequency source.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 10:43:15 -0500 (EST), EWKehren@aol.com wrote:
Bringing out the C field in my estimation does not effect long or short
term. External magnetic field I think is a joke. An other option is a loop
that generates a tuning word for the DDS but that means your steps are 7 E-13.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/12/2012 10:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidwhess@gmail.com writes:
I was more interested in the technical details of how to adjust the
output of a RbO without sacrificing the short and long term stability.
I have seen a few designs that used a DDS to generate the 10 MHz
output which lends itself to this but they all suffer from DDS and
tuning noise. I see now that the RbO can be adjusted with an external
magnetic field.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:44 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
David,
I have been following discussions on the list about a GPSDRbO for a year
or
so. Some interesting challenges and probably best implemented in a
'stable'
environment rather than portable operation but as best I can tell, it
would
require a very stable and good antenna location, stable and clean power,
and
I was thinking of using something like an LPRO-101 with an Ext C Field
input, a Shera type controller, and a GPS timing receiver, though, I
suspect
there are likely to be some 'multi-tasking' receivers out there that will
look at several sources including GPS, GLOSNASS, etc.
While the project might be fun, for portable work, it is likely far easier
and probably just as good (almost), to use a Tbolt.
In any event, something to think about for the future.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
How would a GPSDRbO work? Phase lock the DDS output to the GPS? Phase
lock
a VCXO to the GPS and then phase lock to the RbO on loss of GPS lock?
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:55:58 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
Bill, Brian, Bill, and Peter,
Thanks for the info. All I need now is a 'project' to incorporate the
unit into.
In the back of my mind, I have the thought of a 'box' that will be
battery powered or 110 VAC powered (perhaps with an internal SLA
battery) and include a GPSDO and Rb unit (possibly a GPSDRbO) for the
purpose of a 'reference' for portable operation in the microwave
regions.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
I plan to lock my FE5380 to a GPS also. But I want to mine to "unplug
able". The idea is to connect the GPS and let it sync for some
period of time. Perhaps hours or maybe weeks, the longer the better
and then you can disconnect the GPS and the FE5680 free runs at that
frequency. Plug it back in to sync it.
I think it's clear that a small micro processor is required or a
desktop computer could be used. The FE5680 uses the RS232 port for
frequency adjustment you are going to need a computer. I think a Tiny
AVR would do fine. It is a $2, 8-pin chip. It has a 10-bit A/D
converter to read the phase offset and you can use another pin for
serial output to the FE5680. If you used a digital phase detector
you'd not need the A/D.
The controller would work like the typical GPSDO controller except
the DAC is physically inside the FE5680. This make it easier.
Physically, It will be mounted inside a steel box about the size of a
shoebox (The box once held a pair of large sized disk drives, from
back in the days when drives where about 3" thick) There is a thick
aluminum plate the divides the box vertically. the FE5680 sits on top
of the plate, a heat sink is bonded to the underside of the plate. A
low speed fan moves air through the box slowly. The fan is
controlled by a temperature sensor bonded to the plate the FE5680 is
mounted on. This is a crude type of "oven" using the FE5680 is a
heating element. I hope to stabilize temperature to about 2C.
I'll start with a simple comparator chip as a on/off fan controller
and eventually use another 8-pin uP to do a full PID controller with a
three wire fan
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
One consideration is weather / when the FE writes the DDS setting to
internal EPROM. You can easily wear out an EPROM if it's writing every time
the DDS is updated. On the flip side, having the EPROM save the last correct
value might make the "unplug and walk around" part a bit easier.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
I plan to lock my FE5380 to a GPS also. But I want to mine to "unplug
able". The idea is to connect the GPS and let it sync for some
period of time. Perhaps hours or maybe weeks, the longer the better
and then you can disconnect the GPS and the FE5680 free runs at that
frequency. Plug it back in to sync it.
I think it's clear that a small micro processor is required or a
desktop computer could be used. The FE5680 uses the RS232 port for
frequency adjustment you are going to need a computer. I think a Tiny
AVR would do fine. It is a $2, 8-pin chip. It has a 10-bit A/D
converter to read the phase offset and you can use another pin for
serial output to the FE5680. If you used a digital phase detector
you'd not need the A/D.
The controller would work like the typical GPSDO controller except
the DAC is physically inside the FE5680. This make it easier.
Physically, It will be mounted inside a steel box about the size of a
shoebox (The box once held a pair of large sized disk drives, from
back in the days when drives where about 3" thick) There is a thick
aluminum plate the divides the box vertically. the FE5680 sits on top
of the plate, a heat sink is bonded to the underside of the plate. A
low speed fan moves air through the box slowly. The fan is
controlled by a temperature sensor bonded to the plate the FE5680 is
mounted on. This is a crude type of "oven" using the FE5680 is a
heating element. I hope to stabilize temperature to about 2C.
I'll start with a simple comparator chip as a on/off fan controller
and eventually use another 8-pin uP to do a full PID controller with a
three wire fan
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
One consideration is weather / when the FE writes the DDS setting to
internal EPROM. You can easily wear out an EPROM if it's writing every time
the DDS is updated. On the flip side, having the EPROM save the last correct
value might make the "unplug and walk around" part a bit easier.
The user FE5680 manual suggests to write to EPROM once an hour. I
might do that or I might have the controller detect the "unplug"
event and then write to EPROM. Likely we don't change the offset
more more then one every few hours if even that.
Either way I think the rule is write no more then once every hour or so.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
I think it would be worth the effort to try dithering the DDS commands into
the Rb while measuring ADEV. You might find that you can do it with little
or no impact on the unit's stability. If so it takes out some modification
effort and should make the controller cheaper.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of EWKehren@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:43 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
Bringing out the C field in my estimation does not effect long or short
term. External magnetic field I think is a joke. An other option is a loop
that generates a tuning word for the DDS but that means your steps are 7
E-13.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/12/2012 10:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidwhess@gmail.com writes:
I was more interested in the technical details of how to adjust the
output of a RbO without sacrificing the short and long term stability.
I have seen a few designs that used a DDS to generate the 10 MHz
output which lends itself to this but they all suffer from DDS and
tuning noise. I see now that the RbO can be adjusted with an external
magnetic field.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:44 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
David,
I have been following discussions on the list about a GPSDRbO for a year
or
so. Some interesting challenges and probably best implemented in a
'stable'
environment rather than portable operation but as best I can tell, it
would
require a very stable and good antenna location, stable and clean power,
and
I was thinking of using something like an LPRO-101 with an Ext C Field
input, a Shera type controller, and a GPS timing receiver, though, I
suspect
there are likely to be some 'multi-tasking' receivers out there that will
look at several sources including GPS, GLOSNASS, etc.
While the project might be fun, for portable work, it is likely far easier
and probably just as good (almost), to use a Tbolt.
In any event, something to think about for the future.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
How would a GPSDRbO work? Phase lock the DDS output to the GPS? Phase
lock
a VCXO to the GPS and then phase lock to the RbO on loss of GPS lock?
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:55:58 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
Bill, Brian, Bill, and Peter,
Thanks for the info. All I need now is a 'project' to incorporate the
unit into.
In the back of my mind, I have the thought of a 'box' that will be
battery powered or 110 VAC powered (perhaps with an internal SLA
battery) and include a GPSDO and Rb unit (possibly a GPSDRbO) for the
purpose of a 'reference' for portable operation in the microwave
regions.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
You could do a "push button before unplugging" sort of thing. Only write it
on command. That way the eprom would last forever ...
Once an hour for a year would be 8760 writes. If it's a true eprom, that
should be no problem. If it's rewriting flash, that could get exciting. I
wonder if there's an eprom chip on the board / embedded eprom in a cpu or
not...
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
One consideration is weather / when the FE writes the DDS setting to
internal EPROM. You can easily wear out an EPROM if it's writing every
time
the DDS is updated. On the flip side, having the EPROM save the last
correct
value might make the "unplug and walk around" part a bit easier.
The user FE5680 manual suggests to write to EPROM once an hour. I
might do that or I might have the controller detect the "unplug"
event and then write to EPROM. Likely we don't change the offset
more more then one every few hours if even that.
Either way I think the rule is write no more then once every hour or so.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I think it would be worth the effort to try dithering the DDS commands into
the Rb while measuring ADEV. You might find that you can do it with little
or no impact on the unit's stability. If so it takes out some modification
effort and should make the controller cheaper.
The step size on the DDS is just over 5E-13. This means a worst case
error of about 3E-13. It could very well be that the Rb oscillator
can't be tuned any better than that. and RS232 is as good as you can
get. Good chance that the engineer who picked the 5E-13 step
size pick it for good reason
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of EWKehren@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:43 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
Bringing out the C field in my estimation does not effect long or short
term. External magnetic field I think is a joke. An other option is a loop
that generates a tuning word for the DDS but that means your steps are 7
E-13.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/12/2012 10:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidwhess@gmail.com writes:
I was more interested in the technical details of how to adjust the
output of a RbO without sacrificing the short and long term stability.
I have seen a few designs that used a DDS to generate the 10 MHz
output which lends itself to this but they all suffer from DDS and
tuning noise. I see now that the RbO can be adjusted with an external
magnetic field.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:44 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
David,
I have been following discussions on the list about a GPSDRbO for a year
or
so. Some interesting challenges and probably best implemented in a
'stable'
environment rather than portable operation but as best I can tell, it
would
require a very stable and good antenna location, stable and clean power,
and
I was thinking of using something like an LPRO-101 with an Ext C Field
input, a Shera type controller, and a GPS timing receiver, though, I
suspect
there are likely to be some 'multi-tasking' receivers out there that will
look at several sources including GPS, GLOSNASS, etc.
While the project might be fun, for portable work, it is likely far easier
and probably just as good (almost), to use a Tbolt.
In any event, something to think about for the future.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
How would a GPSDRbO work? Phase lock the DDS output to the GPS? Phase
lock
a VCXO to the GPS and then phase lock to the RbO on loss of GPS lock?
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:55:58 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
Bill, Brian, Bill, and Peter,
Thanks for the info. All I need now is a 'project' to incorporate the
unit into.
In the back of my mind, I have the thought of a 'box' that will be
battery powered or 110 VAC powered (perhaps with an internal SLA
battery) and include a GPSDO and Rb unit (possibly a GPSDRbO) for the
purpose of a 'reference' for portable operation in the microwave
regions.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
You could do a "push button before unplugging" sort of thing. Only write it
on command. That way the eprom would last forever ...
Once an hour for a year would be 8760 writes. If it's a true eprom, that
should be no problem. If it's rewriting flash, that could get exciting. I
wonder if there's an eprom chip on the board / embedded eprom in a cpu or
You only have to write once per if the value change from the last
hour. With and 18 or 24 hour time constant and semi controlled
environment. most hours you may not write.
The controller will know very soon that the GPS is unplugged.
After the first PPS is missed. A very smart controller could look
at the RS232 data from the GPS. Maybe even use the saw tooth
correction data to adjust the PPS.
I want the controller to notice a dead GPS anyway, that is how you do
automatic holdover. Ideally it would read the serial data from the
GPS and only adjust the DDS when the GPS was in lock.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
The 7x10^-13 step size is a direct result of the DDS chip they chose. If you
want to keep the cost down, there aren't a lot of choices...
If (and that's a big if) you can dither at ~10 steps a second, you could see
the +/- 3x10^-13 at 0.1 second and be down to +/- 3x10^-14 at 1 second. The
ADEV on the part is likely 3 or 4x10^-11 at 0.1 second. The dither would be
1/100th of the noise that's already there....
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:44 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I think it would be worth the effort to try dithering the DDS commands
into
the Rb while measuring ADEV. You might find that you can do it with
little
or no impact on the unit's stability. If so it takes out some modification
effort and should make the controller cheaper.
The step size on the DDS is just over 5E-13. This means a worst case
error of about 3E-13. It could very well be that the Rb oscillator
can't be tuned any better than that. and RS232 is as good as you can
get. Good chance that the engineer who picked the 5E-13 step
size pick it for good reason
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of EWKehren@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:43 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
Bringing out the C field in my estimation does not effect long or short
term. External magnetic field I think is a joke. An other option is a loop
that generates a tuning word for the DDS but that means your steps are 7
E-13.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/12/2012 10:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davidwhess@gmail.com writes:
I was more interested in the technical details of how to adjust the
output of a RbO without sacrificing the short and long term stability.
I have seen a few designs that used a DDS to generate the 10 MHz
output which lends itself to this but they all suffer from DDS and
tuning noise. I see now that the RbO can be adjusted with an external
magnetic field.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012 07:34:44 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
David,
I have been following discussions on the list about a GPSDRbO for a year
or
so. Some interesting challenges and probably best implemented in a
'stable'
environment rather than portable operation but as best I can tell, it
would
require a very stable and good antenna location, stable and clean power,
and
I was thinking of using something like an LPRO-101 with an Ext C Field
input, a Shera type controller, and a GPS timing receiver, though, I
suspect
there are likely to be some 'multi-tasking' receivers out there that will
look at several sources including GPS, GLOSNASS, etc.
While the project might be fun, for portable work, it is likely far
easier
and probably just as good (almost), to use a Tbolt.
In any event, something to think about for the future.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question
How would a GPSDRbO work? Phase lock the DDS output to the GPS? Phase
lock
a VCXO to the GPS and then phase lock to the RbO on loss of GPS lock?
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:55:58 -0600, "J. L. Trantham" jltran@att.net
wrote:
Bill, Brian, Bill, and Peter,
Thanks for the info. All I need now is a 'project' to incorporate the
unit into.
In the back of my mind, I have the thought of a 'box' that will be
battery powered or 110 VAC powered (perhaps with an internal SLA
battery) and include a GPSDO and Rb unit (possibly a GPSDRbO) for the
purpose of a 'reference' for portable operation in the microwave
regions.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.