Re: [volt-nuts] Looking for Fluke 845AB manual
Fred,
Do you know anyone at Fluke?
Fluke Calibration Services (Netherlands)
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/nlnl/service/kalibratie/default.htm
Incidentally, in the U.S., Fluke runs a 10Vdc round-robin service (DVMP Care
Plan). I'm not sure if that service is available in Europe yet, but as
defined it wouldn't meet your criteria due to higher cost and requirement
that you have at least one Fluke 732A or 732B.
...Still, it might be interesting to know someone at Fluke Netherlands?
Fluke Direct Voltage Maintenance Program (DVMP)
http://us.flukecal.com/node/2137
-Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" pa4tim@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Traveling Standards
I am thinking about doing a bit calibrating as a sort of service and to earn
some money to spend on calibrating my stuff ( p.e. the 731A transfer
standard) with our national standard buro. so not to make money on it, just
to cover expenses.
But he problem is I, have no clue what to ask and if there is. Market. I
have a mint condition guildline cabinet with known documented history and
from the first user. So I can, after the return of the transfer, compare it
with my guildline and have a longtime stable reference. But a calibration
here is not as cheap as in the states I think. A friend had a tek current
probe calibrated, that was over 500 dollar. But i think most " customers"
will have a 4.5 or 5.5 DMM and in that case my cells and calibrators are
allready good enough.
I bought a new calibrated keithley 2000. As soon as It arrived I warmed it
up and measured my cells and calibrators , that I allready had warm up, and
documented that. The cells where less then 3 uV away from the last
documented calibration and still spaced appart like they where then. So for
a 5,5 digit i will be close enough. An old secondhand bought 6,5 digit will
be closer then it was.
I have a the 4 cell guildline cabinet, 731A, 332, 750, 760, 720, philips DC
volt/current calibrator, and. Fluke 5xx AC calibrator. Besides that a GPS
controlled thunderbold Oscillator, a HP 5 MHz standard, counters connected
to the 10 MHz ref upto 18 GHz so I can do counters too. Also have timemark
en pulsgenerators for scope adjustment but that really is on scopes like tek
7000 or 500 series very much labour if you do not have the calibration
plugins. A normal scope is still about 10 hours work.
The problem is I have plenty of time but i am a bit disabled so I can not
work long periods and that means two hours warming up, work an hour on the
instrument and rest for an hour so it would take me days. The calibration of
my 7704 , witch is rather complex took me two weeks. A simple 547 3 days. A
letter plugin about 2 to 4 hours. A DMM like a fluke 8000 or HP3535 is done
in about 2 hours, a keithley 199 doing the memory calibration is done in an
hour or so but a HP3490 is many hours of work. (and there is the problem of
shipping and risk invalved. There can be people trying to missuse your
service by sending not functioning gear and telling you broke it or it gets
dammaged or lost in the mail.)
Are there voltnuts how do such project to earn back a calibration. Are there
other Dutch volt-nuts here ?
I do not know there is market for this in the Netherlands. Not much voltnuts
around and we Dutch are famous for our cheapiness. I am very active on a
very big electronics forum, there are about 4 other volt nuts there, who
probably would spent 50 euro or so on a calibration. The rest ( about 80 % i
think) use there holy 5 tot 30 bucks multimeter. A 50 euro model is
considerd to be rreal expenive and overkill. Cheap is holy around here and
being cheap made to an art.
Lot of topics about Rigol, atten and owen scopes asking if it is wise to buy
because it is a lot of money and or if someone knows a cheaper brand or
model :-(
But a calibrion is looking what the deviation is, most think a calibration
is the same as adjusting it whitin specs. I do that with my own gear and for
a lot of gear that is a hell of a job. And to do that for 50 euro does not
sound tempting.
Fred PA4TIM
Hi Greg,
No, I am not working in electronics, just hobby so I'm not a interesting
custommer for them. I needed parts for my 720. I mailed the service
department, I got a mail returned it was handed over to the service
manager and after that no replays, that was the last thing I heard. I do
not think they care much about collectors who are, in their eyes, no
possible custommer However, I was planning to buy a new 8846A or agilent
at that time. it became a Keithley . I was honnest in my mail and I
wrote I'm a collector and not a company. Maybe that was stupid to do.
Keithley and Guildline are better in that. I mailed keithley about
advise on a good meter for amateur use because the agilent missed some
things I wanted and Fluke... see above, and they phoned me back the same
day to make me a special offer because they liked my
collection/website :-)
I wrote guildline with questions about the standardcel cabinet and got
mail with an old brochure they scanned special for me from the archive,
technical advise on how to restore the foam in the oven and offered help
if I got stuck.
I have a 731A, the Fluke plan is for the 732. I still not trust my 731.
It is reactive on powersupply changes, it is not a very clean output and
even a 10Meg multimeter causes the output to go a few hunderd uV down.
But it regulates so the reference and opamp must be working. All
voltages are correct. Problem was the batterypack was dead and they
changed thing inside to overcome this. There was a big zener instead of
the nicads but no caps or so and that gave a rather big ripple on the
output. I then placed a 7812 but that was no better, placed bigger caps,
no solution and then I made all original and mounted two nicad battery
packs and then it was a little better but not close to the stability of
my 332. Problem is I do not know what type of reference is insite. Only
a fluke partnumber.
So I made myself a few references, just as a test. Not with very good
parts but that gave allready better results as the Fluke so I plan to
use the 731 to replace the Vref with the best reference (do not know
whitch one yet) there is (under 50 dollar :-). Get rid of the batterys
and make a very good (external) powersupply after a 7815 using a TL431,
or several parallel and a percision opamp to get enough current and a
stable clean 12V.
Fred
gbusg schreef op do 01-09-2011 om 05:12 [-0600]:
Fred,
Do you know anyone at Fluke?
Fluke Calibration Services (Netherlands)
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/nlnl/service/kalibratie/default.htm
Incidentally, in the U.S., Fluke runs a 10Vdc round-robin service (DVMP Care
Plan). I'm not sure if that service is available in Europe yet, but as
defined it wouldn't meet your criteria due to higher cost and requirement
that you have at least one Fluke 732A or 732B.
...Still, it might be interesting to know someone at Fluke Netherlands?
Fluke Direct Voltage Maintenance Program (DVMP)
http://us.flukecal.com/node/2137
-Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Schneider" pa4tim@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Traveling Standards
I am thinking about doing a bit calibrating as a sort of service and to earn
some money to spend on calibrating my stuff ( p.e. the 731A transfer
standard) with our national standard buro. so not to make money on it, just
to cover expenses.
But he problem is I, have no clue what to ask and if there is. Market. I
have a mint condition guildline cabinet with known documented history and
from the first user. So I can, after the return of the transfer, compare it
with my guildline and have a longtime stable reference. But a calibration
here is not as cheap as in the states I think. A friend had a tek current
probe calibrated, that was over 500 dollar. But i think most " customers"
will have a 4.5 or 5.5 DMM and in that case my cells and calibrators are
allready good enough.
I bought a new calibrated keithley 2000. As soon as It arrived I warmed it
up and measured my cells and calibrators , that I allready had warm up, and
documented that. The cells where less then 3 uV away from the last
documented calibration and still spaced appart like they where then. So for
a 5,5 digit i will be close enough. An old secondhand bought 6,5 digit will
be closer then it was.
I have a the 4 cell guildline cabinet, 731A, 332, 750, 760, 720, philips DC
volt/current calibrator, and. Fluke 5xx AC calibrator. Besides that a GPS
controlled thunderbold Oscillator, a HP 5 MHz standard, counters connected
to the 10 MHz ref upto 18 GHz so I can do counters too. Also have timemark
en pulsgenerators for scope adjustment but that really is on scopes like tek
7000 or 500 series very much labour if you do not have the calibration
plugins. A normal scope is still about 10 hours work.
The problem is I have plenty of time but i am a bit disabled so I can not
work long periods and that means two hours warming up, work an hour on the
instrument and rest for an hour so it would take me days. The calibration of
my 7704 , witch is rather complex took me two weeks. A simple 547 3 days. A
letter plugin about 2 to 4 hours. A DMM like a fluke 8000 or HP3535 is done
in about 2 hours, a keithley 199 doing the memory calibration is done in an
hour or so but a HP3490 is many hours of work. (and there is the problem of
shipping and risk invalved. There can be people trying to missuse your
service by sending not functioning gear and telling you broke it or it gets
dammaged or lost in the mail.)
Are there voltnuts how do such project to earn back a calibration. Are there
other Dutch volt-nuts here ?
I do not know there is market for this in the Netherlands. Not much voltnuts
around and we Dutch are famous for our cheapiness. I am very active on a
very big electronics forum, there are about 4 other volt nuts there, who
probably would spent 50 euro or so on a calibration. The rest ( about 80 % i
think) use there holy 5 tot 30 bucks multimeter. A 50 euro model is
considerd to be rreal expenive and overkill. Cheap is holy around here and
being cheap made to an art.
Lot of topics about Rigol, atten and owen scopes asking if it is wise to buy
because it is a lot of money and or if someone knows a cheaper brand or
model :-(
But a calibrion is looking what the deviation is, most think a calibration
is the same as adjusting it whitin specs. I do that with my own gear and for
a lot of gear that is a hell of a job. And to do that for 50 euro does not
sound tempting.
Fred PA4TIM
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
About the traveling standard, I'll be glad to have it checked at my day job. We have our own cal lab and everything is calibrated NIST traceable. Not sure exactly what they have, it is a very well equipped lab. I know they have at least one HP 3458A and a Fluke 5500A calibrator.
I had my HP 3478 calibrated there. It was an eBay special with a 5 years old cal sticker, and it was still well within spec with a wide margin.
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
-----Original Message-----
From: Stan Katz stan.katz.hk@gmail.com
Sender: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 01:45:19
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurementvolt-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Traveling Standards
Bob,
You've heard from the experts now here's some thoughts from a mere hobbyist.
First, there was discussion, on this list, in Nov. 2008 on this issue. I
would also be happy to be able to rotate a homebuilt transfer standard
through a kind hearted soul's home lab ( don't worry Charlie, I don't intend
to piggyback on your good hearted offer to Bob) equipped with 732A's and
access to an employer's NIST traceable lab gear. In fact, a master
metrologist did take pity on me, and actually gave away a little standard
which I had to use as soon as I got it at exactly 63.5F to perform the
transfer. That little standard "moved away" 300ppm in 90 days from the HP
3456 and ancient HP735A transfer standard I applied it to (the 3456 and 735A
were only about 30ppm apart by then). Take a look at the Nov 2008 archive.
Some were happy with the cost/performance of the Geller product
http://www.gellerlabs.com/SVR%20Series.htm, Some others considered its long
term stability suspect. If that's the case, in time, you'll just have
another suspect clock in your collection. As my knowledge, and appetite for
metrological perfection falls quite short in comparison to the scholars and
master designers who dominate this list, a 10ppm transfer capability, from a
transfer standard with a long term drift of less than 5ppm/year would be a
joy. In that regard, my own preference would be to build the clone of the HP
3458A reference board described by Max Carter
http://www.maxmcarter.com/vref/. The use of metal film resistors on the
board as shown I will generously presume to have been placed there after the
builder ran out of funds for Vishay wirewounds, or thin films. In any event,
I can't afford precision, low tempco resistors either. I would also use
metal films, but I would ovenize as per your off-the-cuff, and HOPE the heat
blows off the humidity. I would build an aluminum plate "coffin" around all
components except the LTZ1000 (is it also position sensitive like LM399s?),
build a precision heater control circuit to heat either resistor arrays or
pilot lamps sprinkled around the board, fill the "coffin" with insulating
foam, and seal. Maybe this arrangement would have better long term stability
than the Geller, or maybe it's DOA. Comments from scholars and master
designers welcome. I realize, with the whole board ovenized, shipping under
battery power may be a bit impractical.
As far as relying on the kindness of strangers, that's ok for a one off. To
regularly (e.g. yearly) calibrate whatever homebuilt transfer standard you
come up with, is a different matter. I realize the list members with the
highest level of standards control, are also the same ones immersed in
highly complex lab project on their own precious time. They can't be
expected to waste time tearing open scores of packages, and then repackaging
standards for return. May I ask if there's someone on this list who has a
wife, child, nephew, niece, or cousin, willing to run a small business from
dad's/grandpa's home lab? While Geller charges $10.00 to recalibrate your
Geller "transfer reference" by throwing it across an HP3458A, a volt-nut
Grandpa Lab may just be OCD enough to demand to have the little family
business do a right and proper transfer right from grandpa's bank of 732A's.
In which case, you aren't going to get away with $10.00 cal+ship. Grandpa's
lab would have to charge at least $50.00. I would certainly be willing to
pay $50.00 vs. $500 to a commercial lab. What a bargain!
Regards,
Stan
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Bob Smither smither@c-c-i.com wrote:
Fellow voltage aficionados ,
If this has already been discussed - my apologies. I could not find this
topic in the past several months of list archives.
Like many of us, I have an ever growing collection of voltmeters and
related instruments. Like the man with two clocks who is never sure of the
time, I now have enough volt meters to have doubts about all of them.
So - I was wondering if those on this list with really good voltage
measurement capabilities would be willing to help those of us without.
What I have in mind is creating a small voltage reference circuit based on
one of the many available IC references that is stable enough in both time
and temperature to use as a transfer standard. I am thinking that the
actual voltage is not important, just the stability. Using the ICs that I
am familiar with the actual reference voltage would be around 5, 7, or 10
volts. Said reference would be mailed to a willing list member who would
record his reading of the reference and mail it back.
I don't have such a reference yet, but have breadboarded a couple and the
idea seems like it might work.
My first objective would be to obtain a reference that I could use to get
all my meters to agree. Since the best meters I have are an HP3455A (best
accuracy about 20 - 40 ppm, and only for 24 hours) and an ancient (but very
usable) Fluke 883AB (best accuracy is 100ppm), I would be very happy to have
a reference that I could trust to 10ppm.
So - two questions for the list:
-
Does this sound feasible? Am I overlooking anything that would keep me
from being able to transfer a 10ppm known reference? -
Any list members that would be willing to help with this? I envision
mailing a small package with the reference in it along with an enclosed,
postage paid, return box. I am asking for a member that would take the
reference, apply power, let it warm up, record the room temperature and the
reference voltage to within 10ppm, and return it to me. If you prefer to
respond off-list - smither@c-c-i.com.
BTW - I live in Friendswood, Texas (near Houston). Any fellow nutters
close enough that I could hand deliver the reference?
Best regards,
Bob Smither
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shalimr9@gmail.com wrote:
About the traveling standard, I'll be glad to have it checked at my
day job. We have our own cal lab and everything is calibrated NIST
traceable. Not sure exactly what they have, it is a very well
equipped lab. I know they have at least one HP 3458A and a Fluke
5500A calibrator.
I had my HP 3478 calibrated there. It was an eBay special with a 5
years old cal sticker, and it was still well within spec with a wide
margin.
Didier KO4BB
Thanks Didier! I have your name in my volunteers file - will contact
you when the unit is ready to ship.
Best regards,
---=====
Bob Smither Circuit Concepts, Inc.
“Three groups spend other people's money:
children, thieves, politicians.
All three need supervision.”
-- Dick Armey
Smither@c-c-i.com www.c-c-i.com 281-331-2744
---=====
Fred,
Fellow Dutch Volt-nut here :-)
Op 1-9-2011 9:20, Fred Schneider schreef:
I am thinking about doing a bit calibrating as a sort of service and to earn some money to spend on calibrating my stuff ( p.e. the 731A transfer standard) with our national standard buro. so not to make money on it, just to cover expenses.
Last time I asked, Fluke charges 890 Euro (ex. VAT) for the calibration
of a 732A. I very much doubt NMi will be any cheaper than that.
But he problem is I, have no clue what to ask and if there is. Market.
This, too, I very much doubt. The people that need their stuff
calibrated will go to a certified lab anyway and the rest probably
doesn't really care (or even recognise the need for regular
calibration). And you did describe the Dutch attitude towards spending
money all too well, I'm afraid :-(.
As for myself, I'm lucky enough to have made a job out of my hobby and
being self-employed I can easily justify having both my Fluke 8842 and
my HP3457 calibrated annually. Someday I will have my 732 and my
recently acquired SR104 calibrated, but at the moment, other things
(well, "things"; my one-year old, actually ;-) ) take precedence.
Feel free to contact me off-list if you want any further discussion or
if you require any assistance I might be able to offer.
Best regards,
Rob.
Op 1-9-2011 9:01, Andreas Jahn schreef:
My measurement was around 0.3ppm in November 2011.
Wow, that's impressive Andreas! ;-)
Rob.