I have recently purchased my first boat and will be spending all of 2008
getting the boat (and the Captain) ready to do the Loop in the spring of
2009.  The boat is currently equipped with twin Volvo diesel engines and a
10kw genset.  However, the boat only has 2 batteries that are used for
starting the engines and providing DC house current.  (the genset also has a
dedicated starting battery).  I have been a lurker on this list for over two
years and have learned much including that, unless I wish to sleep with the
genset running while on the hook, I should be sure to have dedicated house
batteries, an inverter and a proper charging system that will charge both
house and starting batteries.

I plan on getting that work done while the boat is on the hard at a NC
boatyard getting other maintenance performed.  My questions to the group are

• What type of House Battery is recommended?  What total a/h should I look
  for?  I have been looking at the Xantrex Freedom 25/12 charger/inverter - is
  this recommended?  Any other suggestions?  Also, budget is a very important
  factor.

Thanks

Jim  & Carol Boyd

Lark

Morehead City Yacht Basin

Jim:

You would only have to run your genset at night if you have 115 V AC loads at
night. The only load that I can envision is air conditioning. Air conditioning
loads are generally too much to run with an inverter. The other potential
loads are a hair dryer and a microwave. These are very short term and don't
require that much DC amphours to power an inverter to operate them. But it
does take a big inverter to operate a hair dryer. You can time your usage of
these loads to coincide with your genset running, so you may not absolutely
need an inverter. The Freedom 25 would run a hair dryer or microwave (but not
at the same time) and also has a 100 amp charger built in. This or even the
Freedom 20 would be a good choice for your system. The inverter/charger will
cost $1000 or more.

So, you will run your genset to charge batteries, not necessarily to run AC
loads. And to charge batteries quickly you need a big charger, so the Freedom
25 inverter/charger is a very good solution. Another solution is the Xantrax
MS2000. This is a true sine wave inverter which you probably don't need.

First figure how much DC loads you have. Refrigeration and lights are the two
biggest loads. With an efficient and well insulated refrigerator, you should
need 100-150 amphours per 24 hours. So, assuming that you will run your genset
or your propulsion engine to recharge batteries once each day, then you will
need about 2X your daily load in amphour capacity. This is to keep from
discharging more than 50% for best battery life.

A house bank of four 6V golf cart batteries wired series/parallel will give
you 440 amphours of capacity at 12V and should work fine for your needs. These
should cost about $400. You could do the same with two 8D AGMs at three times
the price.

Flooded cell batteries like golf carts can accept a charging rate of 25% of
the rated capacity. So you can charge the 440 amphour bank stated above at 100
amps with the Freedom 25 with the generator running for about two hours each
day (that you don't run your propulsion engine).

You need to think about how to wire your DC system to protect the engine and
generator start batteries from being discharged along with the house bank. A
good scheme would be to charge the house bank directly from the
invereter/charger and isolate and charge the starting battery from the echo
charge feature built in to the Freedom. The genset probably has its own
charger that will keep its starting battery charged. Make sure that it too is
isolated from the house bank. This type of system where the start batteries
are isolated and charged by the echo charge output is a set and forget system.
There are no switches to forget to turn.

You probably are going to need a marine electrician to install this system for
you. Find one and talk through the issues noted above to get his ideas.

David

I just had my boat redone -

The boat has twin engines, had an old charger and two battery banks, each consisting of one 8D battery. Also had a dedicated group 24 for the generator.
Here's what I got:

1 new starting bank consisting of 2 group 27 batteries. This gives me 1500 amps, which is a little more then the 8D with the added benefit
that I will no longer need to have a chiro on standby whenever I need to lift them out for replacement.

1 new bank consisting of 6 golf cart batteries for the house bank.

Xantrex Freedom 20 (2000 watt inverter + 100 amp charger). Defender had the best price.
Blue Seas Combiner
The Combiner tied together the two banks and was then connected to the main output from the new charger. The Freedom echo charger
was then hooked up to the generator battery.

Here's the prices I found for golf cart batteries:

Trojans delivered from a local golf cart company - 6 for $550. Don't know for sure if that was tax included, etc.
Local Interstate battery store - $93 each if I buy at least two.
Costco - $79 + $6.50 each in disposal fees, etc.
Sams - $67 each + $9.00 in fees.

Both the Costco and Sams batteries are made by Johnson Controls (who apparently make most of the batteries sold in auto stores, Sears, etc)
I will be getting the Sams batteries. If they last 2/3 as long as the Trojans I come out even.

Tim Behan

1983 36' Monk

More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

If/when you install a large house bank (four or more golf carts) be
careful about your alternators.  Many small frame original equipment
alternators will overheat and self destruct if they are used
to recharge a large bank of discharged batteries.  A 40 amp
alternator isn't really designed to output 40 amps continuously
for a long period of time.

It would be great to replace both alternators and install smart
regulators but it's really expensive.  After spending  a night or two
at anchor we would use the generator and 110 amp charger in
the inverter to bulk charge our golf carts for an hour or so
while underway.  Then the generator could be turned off and
the engine alternators would finish the job over the next 6 or
8 hours.  Our little 40 amp oem alternators survived.

Maybe someone else mentioned it and I didn't notice but one
other thing you really should include is a battery monitor such
as the Link 10 or Link 1000.  They are great if you learn how
to use them to manage the state of your house battery.  I think
you really don't need a battery monitor for your starting
batteries.  They are rarely a problem.

Jim Fidler  "Fiddlesticks"

You're going to "save" $94 and pick them up and deliver them yourself? And
for that saving you're willing to get a generic battery produced by Johnson
Controls to an unknown specification as opposed to Trojan batteries with a
known reputation.

IMHO, that is literally penny-wise and pound foolish.

Ron Rogers

----- Original Message -----
From: tbehan6468@aol.com
|
| Here's the prices I found for golf cart batteries:
|
| Trojans delivered from a local golf cart company - 6 for $550. Don't know
for sure if that was tax included, etc.
| Local Interstate battery store - $93 each if I buy at least two.
| Costco - $79 + $6.50 each in disposal fees, etc.
| Sams - $67 each + $9.00 in fees.
|
| Both the Costco and Sams batteries are made by Johnson Controls (who
apparently make most of the batteries sold in auto stores, Sears, etc)
| I will be getting the Sams batteries. If they last 2/3 as long as the
Trojans I come out even.

snip: I have recently purchased my first boat and will be spending all of
2008 getting the boat (and the Captain) ready to do the Loop in the spring
of 2009.  The boat is currently equipped with twin Volvo diesel engines and
I should be sure to have dedicated house batteries, an inverter and a proper
charging system that will charge both house and starting batteries.

My input and experience:

I put Xantrex 2500 Inverter with its 130 amp charger supported by 8 golf
cart batteries on Apolonia.  I did not purchase the remote controller
(~$300) as Xantrex said the system was engineered to run automatically.  It
does.  Controller just provides monitoring numbers and human control.  The
discharge rate and operation are known quickly with your use and it doesn't
change, so why have numbers to tell you. The engineers who built it, I know,
are smarter than I am.  Has worked perfectly including first year (2005) on
the loop.  Just keep water in batteries if wet cell, as mine are.  Once a
month check.  I followed Xantrex install instructions and had qualified
electrician verify my install plan (proper fuses and wire size and length).
Purchased 2500 at discount store for just over $1,100 ... golf cart
batteries and wiring from another discount store for ~$680.  I tied the
inverter to one 30amp panel on boat and put everything on that panel that
would run from inverter.  It's quiet at night (no genset) and 115V from
inverter comes on instantly and automatically when the genset or shore
supplied power is shut down with its breaker.  Not even a flicker in the
lights, refrig, or TV.  I only have 40 amp alternators on engines so use
genset to charge battiers 1.5 hours per day usually during dinner; remainder
of charge easily handled by alternators when underway.  The draw backs are
two: 1) to stop auto operation of inverter must go to engine room where main
controller is and push the off switch which I seldom do as I like it in auto
operation, and 2) after power applied by either genset or shore the charger
automatically comes on.  To shut it off, which I seldom do, I also must go
to main control panel in engine room. These potential draw backs can be
overcome with the remote control.  It was not worth $300 to me.

Sincerely,

Phil and Carey Bolin
Apolonia, 43' Vista
804-761-3425
web page:  http://home.earthlink.net/~pwbolin
email:  pwbolin@earthlink.net

My suggestions are based on what I have, and they are very cost effective
and work very well:

1.)  Inverter bank is 8 golf cart batteries, yielding 880 amp/hours. Cost
was $85 x 8 = $680
2.)  Inverter is Tripp-Lite PV2400FC for about $450 (2400 watts continusous,
4800 for 5 minutes).
3.)  Charger is Iota Engineering DLS-90 with 90 amps charging current. About
$400
4.)  Switching relay system Potter and Brumfield contacter about $45.
5.)  Wiring time was about 1 full day.

This gives me a very robust system, with good holding power for an evening,
and breakfast with lots of stuff running.  (Albeit no hot water tank heater
or air-conditioning, but everything else).

My refrigerator is a Samsung and it is wonderful.  I wrote up the
installation in the MTOA magazine.  The system uses totally discrete
separate cooling systems for the freezer and the refrigerator sections.
When defrost is needed, it dumps the heat from one section to defrost the
other, thus very efficient.  The power used on AC is less than 3 amps
running and less than 30 amps through the inverter off the batteries.  The
efficiency is very good and the capacity is 18 cubic feet, not a 12 volt toy
'fridge.  We LOVE it.

As CCC always points out, YMMV.

Cheers,
Ken Bloomfield
MTOA# 2062
AGLCA 3529
M/V Tellico Lady, 50' MT-Walkaround

Hi Lark,
You got the boat, good. Now, first things first. The chain of
command
goes something like this - I am guessing this is Jim, you are the
Captain, deckhand and swab - Carol is the Admiral. If this is Carol, I'm
sorry, you got right the first time.

Chuck

-----Original
Message-----
From: great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Jim Boyd
Sent:
Saturday, February 23, 2008 5:39 PM
To: great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Subject: GL: Battery-inverter-charger questions

I have recently purchased
my first boat and will be spending all of 2008
getting the boat (and the
Captain) ready to do the Loop in the spring of
2009.  The boat is currently
equipped with twin Volvo diesel engines and
a
10kw genset.  However, the
boat only has 2 batteries that are used for
starting the engines and
providing DC house current.  (the genset also
has a
dedicated starting
battery).  I have been a lurker on this list for over
two
years and have
learned much including that, unless I wish to sleep with
the
genset running
while on the hook, I should be sure to have dedicated
house
batteries, an
inverter and a proper charging system that will charge
both
house and
starting batteries.

I plan on getting that work done while the boat is
on the hard at a NC
boatyard getting other maintenance performed.  My
questions to the group
are

• What type of House Battery is recommended?
  What total a/h should I
  look
  for?  I have been looking at the Xantrex
  Freedom 25/12 charger/inverter
• is
  this recommended?  Any other
  suggestions?  Also, budget is a very
  important
  factor.

Thanks
Jim  & Carol Boyd

Lark

Morehead City Yacht Basin

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/great-loop

To modify your
Great-Loop subscription options (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.) go
to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/great-loop
This communication
(including any attachments) is for the use of
the intended recipient(s) only
and may contain information that is
confidential, privileged or otherwise
legally protected. Any
unauthorized use or dissemination of this communication
is
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please
immediately notify the sender by return e-mail message and
delete all copies
of the original communication. Thank you for your
cooperation.

For whatever it is worth, I have had Trojan golf cart batteries and standard
golf cart batteries that I bought here in TN from a vendor who sells ones
made by TNT.  The TNT batteries have outlasted the Trojan ones.  It may just
be the useage that they have recieved, but the setup never changed and my
boating never changed significantly.

I suspect that unless you go to a battery like the Surrette one, that you
will get about 5 years from golf cart batteries Trojan or other.

Ken Bloomfield.