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Indifference (three most important pieces of advice)

P
PRINTMORE1@aol.com
Wed, Dec 15, 2004 11:08 PM

Georgs et al: Your question was "What are the three most important pieces  of
advice you would offer to those starting to think trans-Atlantic?"  The
simple answer is planning, planning and more planning. The real answer is of
course very lengthy but I will try my best. Advice #1. HEALTH: consult with your
doctor(s) to ensure that your personal health and mental attitude is OK to
meet  the need that you will be away from land for many days at a time. Get his
and  others help in preparing a full on board medical arsenal based on your
needs as  well as the crew. Advice #2: THE BOAT: We made our trip in 1984 so my
comments  apply to that time frame. Keep the systems simple which means that if
you cannot  repair or jury rig a solution do not depend on that function
unless you carry a  replacement with the knowledge of reinstalling. e.g, we do not
have a generator  as I did not want to worry about a 3rd (our boat is twin)
to be concerned about.  Our winch is manual so if needed to operate the sea
anchor we would not use up  battery power. I could go on and on but hopefully you
can get the thrust of my  comments. The boats today are so complicated that I
feel you would have to have  a marine engineer on board or travel in a convoy
much as the NAR did. Advice #3:  TRAINING: We used the sound (Long Island)
for ours. With only my wife and I we  had to learn the 6 hour on/off schedule (4
hrs sleep, 1 hr food, 1 hr wash). To  do this we ran the sound west to east
until we reached the max # of days of our  planned trip i.e. 14 days(Bermuda to
Azores). This was non-stop and gave us the  opportunity to fine tune the
provisions, the storm windows, launching and  retrieving the flopper stoppers,
emergency procedures (such as the storm  parachute and drogues), changing the oil
(1 engine at a time), Taking our sights  and establishing fixes. Using the
SSB, weather fax(off the SSB) and ham  radio.
Now although you did not ask for more than 3,  I would like to add  TRIP
PLAN: A full study of the pilot charts and your courses with full or as  much as
possible the sea and weather patterns. Also we were not tied to a  schedule so
we did not have to take unnecessary chances. e.g. before we left for  the
Azores from Bermuda we waited for a window of 7 days and that along  with the
study of the sea and weather at the Azores area gave us the 14 days we  needed.
There is so much more but how do you put into an e-mail 5 years of  training.
I would be willing to comment on any aspect more fully if asked.  Regards.
Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE

Georgs et al: Your question was "What are the three most important pieces of advice you would offer to those starting to think trans-Atlantic?" The simple answer is planning, planning and more planning. The real answer is of course very lengthy but I will try my best. Advice #1. HEALTH: consult with your doctor(s) to ensure that your personal health and mental attitude is OK to meet the need that you will be away from land for many days at a time. Get his and others help in preparing a full on board medical arsenal based on your needs as well as the crew. Advice #2: THE BOAT: We made our trip in 1984 so my comments apply to that time frame. Keep the systems simple which means that if you cannot repair or jury rig a solution do not depend on that function unless you carry a replacement with the knowledge of reinstalling. e.g, we do not have a generator as I did not want to worry about a 3rd (our boat is twin) to be concerned about. Our winch is manual so if needed to operate the sea anchor we would not use up battery power. I could go on and on but hopefully you can get the thrust of my comments. The boats today are so complicated that I feel you would have to have a marine engineer on board or travel in a convoy much as the NAR did. Advice #3: TRAINING: We used the sound (Long Island) for ours. With only my wife and I we had to learn the 6 hour on/off schedule (4 hrs sleep, 1 hr food, 1 hr wash). To do this we ran the sound west to east until we reached the max # of days of our planned trip i.e. 14 days(Bermuda to Azores). This was non-stop and gave us the opportunity to fine tune the provisions, the storm windows, launching and retrieving the flopper stoppers, emergency procedures (such as the storm parachute and drogues), changing the oil (1 engine at a time), Taking our sights and establishing fixes. Using the SSB, weather fax(off the SSB) and ham radio. Now although you did not ask for more than 3, I would like to add TRIP PLAN: A full study of the pilot charts and your courses with full or as much as possible the sea and weather patterns. Also we were not tied to a schedule so we did not have to take unnecessary chances. e.g. before we left for the Azores from Bermuda we waited for a window of 7 days and that along with the study of the sea and weather at the Azores area gave us the 14 days we needed. There is so much more but how do you put into an e-mail 5 years of training. I would be willing to comment on any aspect more fully if asked. Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE
MM
Mike Maurice
Thu, Dec 16, 2004 12:27 AM

At 06:08 PM 12/15/04 -0500, you wrote:

Now although you did not ask for more than 3,  I would like to add TRIP
PLAN: A full study of the pilot charts and your courses with full or as
much as possible the sea and weather patterns. Also we were not tied to a
schedule so we did not have to take unnecessary chances. e.g. before we
left for the Azores from Bermuda we waited for a window of 7 days and that
along with the study of the sea and weather at the Azores area gave us the
14 days we needed.

The Pilot charts are interesting and have some use, but their relative
worth is not what it is cracked up to be.
The charts are nothing more than a statistical representation of the odds
of wind and speed from any particular direction for the location and time
period indicated.
They are a long term average over many, many years and one of the troubles
is that when you make your crossing the odds that the year of your passage
coinciding with anything RESEMBLING the conditions indicated ranges from
50/50 to maybe 1 in 100. This is less of a concern as the size of your
vessel grows, but remember these charts were targeted at commercial
shipping. And most of those boys are in the 300 feet and up range. At 40 or
50 feet of length and with limited fuel supplies, the actual conditions
that you encounter become much more critical.
Let us assume for a moment that we have the perfect weather reporting and
forecasting system. The product is in every respect without flaw or
blemish. Now, let's get practical. The reporting of conditions may in fact
be nearly perfect, as we have QuickScat satellites whirling around reading
wave heights and deducing wind speeds. The delivery of that info is not
perfect, but may be nearly so. The forecasting system may be nearly perfect
for let's say the next 24 hours, maybe 12 would be more honest. But, it
goes downhill from there.

If we can be sure of having that info, delivered in a very timely manner
then we can be sure of knowing what is going on around the immediate and
far flung area. But, the forecast of what will happen in the future is not
so perfect and now comes the grubby reality. The vehicle that we travel in
not only has not infinite speed, but is attached to the surface and
practical speed for maneuvering to avoid collision with Big Bad Storms, is
around 5-10 knots. That means that in 24 hours you can move only 100 to 250
miles to get out of the way of the BBS.

The point here is not that the modern weather system is inadequate, but
that it is far better than the Pilot Charts. Although I would read them
over before casting off, you would be better served to evaluate the weather
pattern in existence for the year that presently exists and factor that
into the patterns suggested by the charts. The pattern that exists at the
time of your crossing is the pattern most likely to continue and that
pattern may or may not be represented by the Pilot Charts. I would wager
more money on the present pattern.

If this isn't clear, it is worth a couple of questions.

Mike

Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon

At 06:08 PM 12/15/04 -0500, you wrote: >Now although you did not ask for more than 3, I would like to add TRIP >PLAN: A full study of the pilot charts and your courses with full or as >much as possible the sea and weather patterns. Also we were not tied to a >schedule so we did not have to take unnecessary chances. e.g. before we >left for the Azores from Bermuda we waited for a window of 7 days and that >along with the study of the sea and weather at the Azores area gave us the >14 days we needed. The Pilot charts are interesting and have some use, but their relative worth is not what it is cracked up to be. The charts are nothing more than a statistical representation of the odds of wind and speed from any particular direction for the location and time period indicated. They are a long term average over many, many years and one of the troubles is that when you make your crossing the odds that the year of your passage coinciding with anything RESEMBLING the conditions indicated ranges from 50/50 to maybe 1 in 100. This is less of a concern as the size of your vessel grows, but remember these charts were targeted at commercial shipping. And most of those boys are in the 300 feet and up range. At 40 or 50 feet of length and with limited fuel supplies, the actual conditions that you encounter become much more critical. Let us assume for a moment that we have the perfect weather reporting and forecasting system. The product is in every respect without flaw or blemish. Now, let's get practical. The reporting of conditions may in fact be nearly perfect, as we have QuickScat satellites whirling around reading wave heights and deducing wind speeds. The delivery of that info is not perfect, but may be nearly so. The forecasting system may be nearly perfect for let's say the next 24 hours, maybe 12 would be more honest. But, it goes downhill from there. If we can be sure of having that info, delivered in a very timely manner then we can be sure of knowing what is going on around the immediate and far flung area. But, the forecast of what will happen in the future is not so perfect and now comes the grubby reality. The vehicle that we travel in not only has not infinite speed, but is attached to the surface and practical speed for maneuvering to avoid collision with Big Bad Storms, is around 5-10 knots. That means that in 24 hours you can move only 100 to 250 miles to get out of the way of the BBS. The point here is not that the modern weather system is inadequate, but that it is far better than the Pilot Charts. Although I would read them over before casting off, you would be better served to evaluate the weather pattern in existence for the year that presently exists and factor that into the patterns suggested by the charts. The pattern that exists at the time of your crossing is the pattern most likely to continue and that pattern may or may not be represented by the Pilot Charts. I would wager more money on the present pattern. If this isn't clear, it is worth a couple of questions. Mike Capt. Mike Maurice Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
PG
Paul Goyette
Thu, Dec 16, 2004 12:37 AM

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Mike Maurice wrote:

That means that in 24 hours you can move only 100 to 250 miles to get out of
the way of the BBS.

One should also remember two more aspects of this problem:

  1. The further you move or try to move, the more fuel you're going to
    consume, and the faster you're going to consume it.

  2. Unless you have an expedition class boat, your fuel reserves are of
    finite size, so you can only do the "get out of the way of the BBS"
    dance a few times before you're out of options.

One should avail oneself of every available datum concerning the
planned route, and one should revise one's forecast as frequently as
possible.

Just my humble opinion, but you can never have enough weather info!

Paul Goyette
Gentle Wind
1983 61' Cheoy Lee LRC
Sausalito, CA

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Mike Maurice wrote: > That means that in 24 hours you can move only 100 to 250 miles to get out of > the way of the BBS. One should also remember two more aspects of this problem: 1. The further you move or try to move, the more fuel you're going to consume, and the faster you're going to consume it. 2. Unless you have an expedition class boat, your fuel reserves are of finite size, so you can only do the "get out of the way of the BBS" dance a few times before you're out of options. One should avail oneself of _every_ available datum concerning the planned route, and one should revise one's forecast as frequently as possible. Just my humble opinion, but you can never have enough weather info! Paul Goyette Gentle Wind 1983 61' Cheoy Lee LRC Sausalito, CA
JH
John Harris
Thu, Dec 16, 2004 2:43 AM

RE - "The pattern that exists at the time of your crossing is the pattern most likely to continue and that pattern may or may not be represented by the Pilot Charts. I would wager
more money on the present pattern."

I think I am agreeing with Mike but in different words - Pilot charts are a great assist in planning when you are going to expect to see good weather windows for next years trip.  Weather forecasts are a great assist in knowing when a good weather window is about to actually occur.

All that having been said, if your trip plan is for more than 2 or 3 days go prepared for a FULL GALE, just in case you get one.

Regards, John Harris

RE - "The pattern that exists at the time of your crossing is the pattern most likely to continue and that pattern may or may not be represented by the Pilot Charts. I would wager more money on the present pattern." I think I am agreeing with Mike but in different words - Pilot charts are a great assist in planning when you are going to expect to see good weather windows for next years trip. Weather forecasts are a great assist in knowing when a good weather window is about to actually occur. All that having been said, if your trip plan is for more than 2 or 3 days go prepared for a FULL GALE, just in case you get one. Regards, John Harris
GK
Georgs Kolesnikovs
Thu, Dec 16, 2004 1:00 PM

There is so much more but how do you put into an e-mail 5 years of
training. I would be willing to comment on any aspect more fully if
asked. Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE

What broke and how did you fix it?

--Georgs

>There is so much more but how do you put into an e-mail 5 years of >training. I would be willing to comment on any aspect more fully if >asked. Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE What broke and how did you fix it? --Georgs
RR
Ron Rogers
Thu, Dec 16, 2004 5:38 PM

There have been some books which give an insight to the long range voyager's preparation and planning. Some of the best were written by sailing folk.

One example would be "Gypsy Moth Circles the World," by Sir Francis Chichester. Yes, it is dated, but the method is there. Common things like eliminating all cardboard containers and protecting canned goods from rust. His wife created a printed inventory and schematic for all the boat's lockers. His planning for streaming a drogue when running bare-polled before wind and wave. He also tells you what spares and repair materials he carried and used. He even invented a gimbaled navigator's chair.

As he owned a nautical map and book store, he was intimately familiar with the resource materials he would need. He came to depend upon noon sights for navigation, thus covering what to do when all our electronics are knocked-out by lightning. He constantly railed against the boat's builders and sailmakers - whom I met at Ratsey of City Island, NY. The visiting English sailmakers said that he was a really cantankerous customer who was impossible to please. But that's another preparation point: how to get what you want; done the way you want. Anything you can do yourself is to the good, but some, few things can be better done by a professional. This last point was covered at Trawler Fest, Solomons by the owner of Washburn's Yard. Perhaps installing active stabilizers is an example.

Lastly, in those days he lacked on-shore weather forecasters to aid him in prediction, although he did have and used a SSB.

So, in sum, he gives you a method and many of the subjects on which to focus.

Ron Rogers
Willard 40 AIRBORNE
Lying Annapolis

There have been some books which give an insight to the long range voyager's preparation and planning. Some of the best were written by sailing folk. One example would be "Gypsy Moth Circles the World," by Sir Francis Chichester. Yes, it is dated, but the method is there. Common things like eliminating all cardboard containers and protecting canned goods from rust. His wife created a printed inventory and schematic for all the boat's lockers. His planning for streaming a drogue when running bare-polled before wind and wave. He also tells you what spares and repair materials he carried and used. He even invented a gimbaled navigator's chair. As he owned a nautical map and book store, he was intimately familiar with the resource materials he would need. He came to depend upon noon sights for navigation, thus covering what to do when all our electronics are knocked-out by lightning. He constantly railed against the boat's builders and sailmakers - whom I met at Ratsey of City Island, NY. The visiting English sailmakers said that he was a really cantankerous customer who was impossible to please. But that's another preparation point: how to get what you want; done the way you want. Anything you can do yourself is to the good, but some, few things can be better done by a professional. This last point was covered at Trawler Fest, Solomons by the owner of Washburn's Yard. Perhaps installing active stabilizers is an example. Lastly, in those days he lacked on-shore weather forecasters to aid him in prediction, although he did have and used a SSB. So, in sum, he gives you a method and many of the subjects on which to focus. Ron Rogers Willard 40 AIRBORNE Lying Annapolis